I think beauty is a curse. I think of our patriarch's problems with fears over the beauty of their wives, I think of poor Dina--ruined forever because she was pleasing to look upon, I think of several tales in Torah when women's beauty has caused problems...even David Melech fell into sin because of it. I can find only a single tale of the beauty of a woman being a blessing, and that is in the case of Hadassah. She clearly was an exception...but even in her case, while HaSh-m used it (along with a eunuch's help and wisdom) to save our people (Baruch HaSH-m Whose name endures forever) let us face the fact...she still was stuck with a goy for the rest of her life. I am just wondering if the only POSSIBLE good that beauty can bring, is the approval of one's husband--and it may have played a part in distracting him from choosing his true basherta anyway. My little girls are now at the threshhold of womanhood, and are distractingly beautiful...and I can not feel happy for them. Only worry. What does Talmud say about beauty? Is it even addressed? Thoughts??

I can only speak from personal experiences, but when i was growing up, i had good teeth...not that i could see them, but other people could and it seemed to often become a topic of conversation...the more people spoke about my teeth and how good they were, the more self concious I became about them and the more I tried to hide them...it seems silly...but i prefered not to experience some of the experieinces i had, simply because my teeth turned out straight...is this the sort of thing you are thinking of yocheved, when you speak of beauty? that beauty of an object can sometimes attract unwanted attention and sometimes involves jealousy and someone getting hurt?

If you read the Song of Songs, beauty isn't a curse. It is more of a blessing.


S.O.S. 4:7

I know it seems counter-intuitive, Raybin, but read it again...it was a blessing to HIM. (As most men seem to think beauty is something to be seized), and it may/may not be a blessing to HER. The events I can quote throughout the Tanach--even incest in David Melech's own household, can be traced to beauty.

Katja_

YES, this is PRECISELY what I am talking about, and more.

Well, I would rather be beautiful than have a deformity. It's the thing politicians are made of.

To have nice teeth is a blessing.

it all depends on your definition of beauty. If it is typical or atypical.

Chaya was so beautiful that Adam had to hide her away in a cave. Isn't that absurd? To hide beauty. just like Rivka when she veiled herself. She hid her beauty.

men will always be in awe of women's beauty. And women need to be protected and guarded from agressive men. Men who don't know their boundaries and think they can have whatever and whoever they want.

My point exactly. The world is FULL of such men--and the respectful are the EXCEPTION, not the rule.

In the end of Mesechtas Taanis, when it was time to pick a wife, as paraphrased by Kollel Iyun Hadaf.


1. The beautiful ones would tell them to pay attention to beauty, as a wife is for her beauty.

2. Those with Yichus would tell them to pay attention to that, as a wife is for her children.

3. The ugly ones would tell them to marry for the sake of Heaven, and to adorn their wives with golden jewelry.

WE see that it was considered as something as an edge to attract a husband (not to say it's the only thing, but something to consider)

In Brachos 57b

g) Three things broaden a person's mind -- a nice dwelling, a nice wife, and nice vessels.

the actual term is a beautiful wife.

Like anything in life could be a blessing or a curse. Riches could be also a curse, but you need to deal with it correctly. if she would be a loose person, then the beauty could be a curse. but if they are modest and don't mix with boys, and just saves it for the time to get married, and then save it for their husbands, then it could be a big blessing.

Rav Chaim,
I'm not sure I've graduated to be such a tzaddik but I heard one say that it's a mitzvah to marry an ugly wife. Is it true? I think one means you become a philosopher, if you marry an ugly wife. =o)
Moshe

Rav Chaim---

If you please Sir, what of those who were lovely and wished to be considered NOT on that account but for their MINDS?

I think beauty is as you said, can be used for good/evil-- but I also think that it IS a handicap. If there is one thing I have observed about it (from the outside) is that it is consistently a distraction.

Those women who put stock in it, slip into inevitable woeful depressions when the cycle of beauty has ended.

Those who do not put stock in it cannot elude the inevitable problems of it.

Those who desire to be seen (as it were) for the strength of their minds, and character, are constantly disappointed , because they have to continually "prove" to others (or so they feel) that there is a treasure trove of gold to be explored and enjoyed in their minds, and still everyone admires the gold-toned latch to the crate which houses it all.

As I said, only under the slim circumstance of a husband and a wife (and even that must be tempered with a caviat--that they have discovered their true bashert/basherta, because if not, then both of their lives are affected negatively on this same account) is beauty a true blessing (to EITHER the husband or the wife, I would argue).

Unlike money which is (to my mind) an AMPLIFIER of character (if one is good when they are poor, then they will be a great person as a wealthy one--if mildly bad when poor--they will be tyrants as wealthy persons) I think beauty offers no such benefit. In fact, I would argue that it cripples the person so adorned, as a person of average appearance enjoys freedoms due to their being unnoticed. Case in point: if I had three daughters (instead of two) and the two were lovely physically and the third was homely, and I needed something for the house, I would send the homely daughter with my father to the market. She is the safer there. Do you see my point? Even if you disagree?

quote:

Unlike money which is (to my mind) an AMPLIFIER of character (if one is good when they are poor, then they will be a great person as a wealthy one--if mildly bad when poor--they will be tyrants as wealthy persons) I think beauty offers no such benefit. In fact, I would argue that it cripples

If I may try to draw a parallel between beauty and money... specifically visible signs of having money... and then question if there is a difference between amplify or empower (for opportunity)...

Suppose there are two wealthy men with good and generous hearts who, as you say, use their money to amplify their good intentions, and financially support an institution of Torah learning, in which they also wish to participate, but one has a treasure of intelligence in their head, and the other less so.

Suppose also that there are two men without wealth who wish to be part of the same institution, one very smart, and the other less so.

I suppose that the first two will not be treated any differently from each other, that in the merit of the less-smart man's money, any lack of smarts will be well tolerated.

And for the second to, it is quite possible that the smart poor man will be recognized for his smarts.

So by your analogy, the smart wealthy man has a reason to be concerned....he can scream... hey! recognize my smarts! Don't just look at me as a source of money like you do this other man whom you only want around because of his generosity!

He might think that his money is a detriment because it keeps his smarts from being recognized by those who are only interested in seeing money.

Perhaps there are those without greedy motives to only see his money, and who will discern his of-greater-value smarts?

Or perhaps his smartness is visible but not dominant, and is even less so than the 3rd man who has smartness and no money.

The 3rd man, even if he says something smart, there may be those who will be suspicious, and not trust his words to be intelligent, since, if he had smarts he'd surely be wealthier than the 2nd guy. Therefore he must not be smart.

In the eyes of the 3rd guy, who is smart enough to recognize the smartness of the 1st guy, the 1st guy's money is perhaps quite an advantage since both those that discern his smarts or simply want to honor him to get benefit from his money, in either case he is desirable.

In the eyes of the 1st guy, his money is a detriment in that his smartness will only be recognized if it outshines his money-strength.

And these are only problems to one fitting in with an audience who either is incapable of seeing beyond their initial impression, or too arrogant to care if there is anything beyond it.

For a compatible marriage partner who gets to know the whole person, perhaps both money and intelligence are treasured?

...

And thus with physical beauty and with money which has become visible one who has an accurate assessment of what are one's other inner strengths, and can take on the responsibility to not let their desirable outer strenghs, for which others may wish to use them, be used by those that meet their standards of first demonstrating their knowledge of and value of inner strengths.

Money and beauty can be useful tools, as door-openers, by one with a goal (for their heart or mind) can create opportunities to implement their goals, whereas one without such tools may have the need to explain the virtues of their goals and win support before having any such opportunity.

In a way this empowerment to create opportunity is an amplification of a good intention, however there may well be cases where opportunity must be present before any good action can start. Amplification I think implies that both can happen simultaneously.

Perhaps a pleasant appearance can be useful to amplify showing one's gratitude at least as much as a smiling countenance within this context.

If the smiling countenance comes through a homely person, their gratitude may not even be desired, and could become a detriment to future donations!

Yet if the gratitude comes through a person that all would like to have in their presence, it may trigger more donations simply to receive the thank you through a pleasant-appearing messenger.

Mr. Rob:

Your points are well taken. I see it differently than I did, in that (to hop-scotch off of your analogy) the analogy may be further lengthened to include that JUST as beauty CAN be a hindrance to women, LIKEWISE, Money can be a hindrance to MEN, in that motives of others (ESPECIALLY a possible mate) would have to be viewed suspiciously and so forth.

I can see how that having a good deal of money could in fact be VERY frustrating in that --like beauty--the more one has, the more one should be careful and the more one has--the more attention one draws to ones' self whether modest or not.

I like this analogy. I like it because frankly, I never saw men as having to deal withthe same issue as we do, and now I can see that there is comparison.

Perhaps in one way, men are MORE precariously placed, because at least our beauty fades...and money, handled wisely, usually does quite the opposite, hence the man has no hope of letting his guard down a little with time (suspicion-wise).

Thankyou, most enlightening!

Yocheved

From Avi:

quote:

I'm not sure I've graduated to be such a tzaddik but I heard one say that it's a mitzvah to marry an ugly wife. Is it true

It would seem from the end of the Gemara Taanis there that you would be doing it more L'Shma, so to say. Of course marrying anyone that has some disadvantage is always doing a Mitzvah, but one must always weigh if they can live and be happy with those disadvantage, or else the marriage would be bad and your doing noone a favor.

From Yocheved:

quote:

If there is one thing I have observed about it (from the outside) is that it is consistently a distraction.

It depends with whom you're observing and in which cultures. The dominent culture in the US does stress the beauty aspect more than anything else. The Orthodox Jewish culture, though it could be PART of the discission who to marry is based on how attracted he is to the person, but noone has it as the prime reason. On the contrary. How is done is even before he sees the girl, there must be many requirements that the girl must have in the initial background check of the girl before a meeting will be set. Since teh boys and girls don't mingle, just meet when the prospect of marriage comes up. Thus beauty in all other parts of growing up has little importance.

quote:

Unlike money which is (to my mind) an AMPLIFIER of character (if one is good when they are poor, then they will be a great person as a wealthy one--if mildly bad when poor--they will be tyrants as wealthy persons)

First, money can change you. Also, it wouldn't be comparable to being born into it, like beauty (unless someone gets a nose job.) Thus the same person would come out very different whether he was born to poverty or to a wealthy home.

quote:

I would send the homely daughter with my father to the market. She is the safer there. Do you see my point?

This is a good point, but I still feel, that if they're dress modestly and are not minglers, the problem is minimized.

Interesting points, Rav Chaim, I thank you. ON the issue of the mingling--it may be that the children of other Orthodox schools do not do so, and it is CERTAIN that in the Chassidim it is not permitted--but I am afraid that here in the Orthodox school which they will attend until the 12th grade--all the classes are pretty much co-ed. Hence it is still problematic, as teh girls are already interested in marrying and both desire an arranged marriage...but the issue of their constant exposure to the opposite sex is not something I am thrilled with. For what it is worth.

And yes, I cerrainly see to it that the children are dressed properly at ALL times--but the truth is, nothing short of a muslim's Birqa would keep the boys eyes off of them! There id only so much one can do...*SIGH*

although there are some cases where beautiful women save the jewish people

Yes I mentioned Hadassah above--but then, she did have to live with a goy for the rest of her life.

So, you're right in this case. yet, there are still two distinct advantages in your case:

1) that it still an Orthodox school they're in. Since the boys there do learn torah, so they do have a certain different priority than others, so it's much better than boys in public school that would be viewing them (besides they all being Jewish.)

2) Since your putting them there was through pure intentions, thus that gives an extra dose of "Siyata Dishmaya" (help from heaven) that things will work out OK.

From your lips to HaSh-m's ears, Rav Chaim. I pray daily with regard to those very things. Shalom.

P.S. At the very least, the effort of placing them in this school will keep them from (hopefully) being exposed to less appropriate lifetime mates. There was not a single Jewish boy in their old school, so I felt that it was ridiculous to pray and pray they would marry Jewish, without providing them the environment fit for doing so, since it was technically in my power to alter that situation.

On that issue (to expand the breadth of this conversation somewhat) is there a proper blessing--a prayer, in fact, which can be prayed as a mother on the part of the girls, which would invoke HaSh-m's blessings and His involvement in bringing thier Bashert to them at the proper time and place? I don't mean the blessings over them such as at Shabbos when I bless them that they may be as Sarah, Rachel, Rivka and Leah, (as HaSH-m is surely seeing to that--they are turning out beautifully!) Rather, a specific blessing/prayer with regard to the ones who were "made for them"-- a sort of "prevention of harm/invocation of good" blessing? My mother used to call them "time bomb prayers", that would "go off" when they were needed, since a mother cannot be everywhere. She prayed specific ones over me as a babe, that worked beautifully in the time when I most needed them--I wish she had prayed over other areas of my life so that unnecessary traumas and prices would not have had to be paid!! I don't think she counted on their effectiveness as strongly as I have learned to! (Looking back- she does now). How hind-sight is 20/20!

quote:

Originally posted by Yocheved Broscova-Guerra:
I think beauty is a curse. I think of our patriarch's problems with fears over the beauty of their wives, I think of poor Dina--ruined forever because she was pleasing to look upon, I think of several tales in Torah when women's beauty has caused problems...even David Melech fell into sin because of it, etc. ...What does Talmud say about beauty? Is it even addressed? Thoughts??

Yocheved,

Upon careful considerstion of this subject, we find that beauty has played, both, good and bad roles in the lives of individuals. In the case of Sarah, Abraham was greatly exonerated because of her beauty, and came to amass great wealth.
In the case of Joseph, whom the Torah (Parashas Vayashev) acknowledges was of exceptional beauty, that is, his facial features of an exquisite shape and form, Potiphar had initially purchased Joseph for his own self-gratification and mishkav zachur. (Midrash Hagadol) But on the day that he brought Joseph home, Potiphar was made a eunuch to his great dismay! Rav (Abba Aricha) appears to have learned this from the way the Torah, at first, calls him "Potiphar," but later calls him "Potiphera." The last two syllables of his name amounts to the word, פרע, which denotes "recompense," meaning that G-d took vengeance upon him because of what he had planned to do with Joseph.

We also find a story in the Talmud (Taanis 24a) about the daughter of Rabbi Yossi of Yuqarath. She was a damsel of exceptional beauty. When her father had spied a man gazing through his wooden fence after he had bored a hole through the fence, he asked him "What is this all about?" He answered him: "If I was not privileged to take her [in marriage], shall I not be privileged to look upon her?"
The girl's father immediately called his daughter unto himself. He said to her: "My daughter, you are causing sorrow to G-d's creations. Return to your dust, and let not the people stumble on your account." She then died and was buried.

I guess, more than anyone else, she would have thought that her beauty was a curse.

We find another story about a young man who was handsome, and who grew long his locks of hair. Once, when passing by a placid pool of water, he saw his reflection in the water. He was overcome by his own beauty, insomuch that began to think of himself with ill-fancy and conceit. He decided on that day to make himself a Nazirite vow, meaning that after 30-days he would have to shave off his hair and offer it upon the altar. In addition, he could not become defiled by a grave or by a dead corpse, neither drink any wine nor fruit from the vine.
After completing his appointed time, he came to offer his sacrifices in Jerusalem. The high priest, who was wont to eat of those sacrifices, was so impressed by the young man's motives for becoming a Nazir that he said to him that normally he would not eat of other Nazirite offerings, but he would gladly eat of his!

David