As usual, David, you comprehend perfectly my mind on this matter. Beauty is a double-edged sword. I was again revisited by this issue yesterday when someone was looking at my youngest (Yemina) and said, "Do you think she will be willing to marry young? I have a nephew perfect for her!" I told him she was unwilling. I know he knows nothing of my daughter's strong character, and could only have been thinking of her surpassing beauty. OY.

B"H

Yocheved,

So, then, do you think it's wrong for your daughter to marry young? Say, at age seventeen?

David

Ma ShlomHa, David,
On the contrary, sir. But I am unwilling that she marry a man whom is taken with her beauty ALONE. SHe is a strong personality and deeply observant. She needs a like companion. Given the outstanding maturity and knowledge of Torah in daily living, the grasp she has on Jewish ethics as played out in daily life, and the importance of running her home in a kosher manner, as well as the value of finding the will of HaSh-m in her daily life, I would say that she may well be ready to run her own home as a wife earlier than your example date. It may not happen so long as she lives in this country with me, (but uf HaSH-m hears our prayers and we are living in Yisrael soon, then things may well be different) as the westernized civilization here seems to foster maturity in people at a far slower rate than in other countries (even than our neighbors to the south), so it would be unwise to encourage a union of that instance with a very westernized man, in my opinion--but understand, I say that because of the fault I find with this particular culture and therefore its evidence in much of the youth here, NOT because of flaw in HER. I would that she marry older if she were to marry here, but would entertain a far younger"applicant" were he from Yisrael or other culture which fosters maturity early on in the teen's lives. India is a good example of this, and so are many other countries I could name--essentially all of them, except the specifically "Western" ones. I am very aware of the jewels she and her sister both are (although the older, Tzipporah, is desirous to marry early and to have a family, while Yemina is not thus inclined) and I am jealous that their efforts in creating a good home not be "spent" as it were, upon a young man less suited to their characters. FOr this reason I hesitate. Not because of their ages per se. In many countries women marry as soon as they are "women" physically. I would hesitate to this extreme as well, due to physical ramifications of child-bearing before one's body is fully grown. The ability to have children technically does not eliminate the possibility of delivery problems due to pelvic size. Moreover, it is my desire that they both have a keen sense of what sort of man would please them before embarking upon marriage. I do not think that is possible until they first know roughly who they themselves are. I have ideas of what their matches should be/have in their characters, but mostly lean upon my many prayers to HaSh-m to provide that friend/bashert at the appropriate time before I make the arrangements. Tzipporah has already told me that she is willing not only to have it arranged, but also to be wed at the age of my discretion. Yemina, while desirous of being arranged, is NOT desirous of marriage until after she has completed her four-year degree from college (she wishes to be a geologist--a geologist???) So,a s you can see, they have their futures in mind. Age (both theirs and their mates) are neither one so much of an issue to me. Tzipporah wishes to marry older, Yemina only five years senior or so.

NATURALLY I WOULD/WILL NOT ALLOW NOR ARRANGE A MARRIAGE FOR EITHER OF MY DAUGHTERS THAT IS NOT TO AN ORTHODOX RELIGIOUS JEWISH MAN. NEITHER WILL THEY ENTERTAIN SUCH AN IDEA, AS THEY HAVE REPEATED ON NUMEROUS OCCASIONS.

I insert this only because many times I have written on this forum, and people say things in reference to my writings like this " what if they weren't Jewish" and I ASSUME that things like this are already settled as truth and foundational, and that we are building upon that assumption before getting in to the other more debatable topics. Anyone who knows me understands this, but there are new people to the forum whom may not know my character.

In this day and age, marrying off children at a young age only works in a tightly knit frum community where there is a lot of love and support for the couple. Otherwsie it can be a disaster.

B"H

Yocheved,

You have spoken well. Your youngest daughter's decision to marry only after she has earned her college degree, was it her own decision, or was it taken after she had been advised to do so? Just curious. Most orthodox girls here, in this country, marry at a young age.
The Talmud (Yevamos) says that a man ought always to marry off his children when they reach the age of puberty. This is practically impossible today, in our societies - whether in Israel or in the West. But in Yemen, it was common. I know many woman who were married at the very young ages of twelve and thirteen!

As for beauty, it plays an important role with some men. They are admonished not to marry a woman until he has first seen her, and she finds "grace" in his sight. The Talmud also says: "A comely house, and a comely wife and comely accoutrements all help to increase a man's knowledge."

בית נאה ואשה נאה וכלים נאים מרחיבים דעתו של אדם

Sincerely,
David

David Ben Abraham,

Todah. As to Yemina Yemima, I do not understand her desire to wait so long (it seems a highly western attitude to me, and I certainly was not its encourager). I respect it insomuch as it seems wisest to me to do so--for if she encounters no hostility from me on the matter, perhaps she will change her mond of her own accord (???) and in the meantime there will be Shalom Bayis. As to our leanings on the ideas of marriages of girls early on in their thirteenth year, for instance, as I have indicated, I am not against it upon principal at all. I am, however, in the great minority here in the U.S. My children have no judgements on those who do so in other countries or even here for those few who still do (mostly of other religions). As I have said, I only am concerned with child-bearing issues. The younger the girl, the more fertile they typically are, hence early marriage almost gaurantees early pregnancies and I am concerned with their small statures. But that health concern is my one and only true objection.

This same objection, ironically, is the same objection I have to her waiting so long to embark upoin married life, as I am worried for her fertility to diminish with time, as happens regularly with women who put careers first.

Tightly knit frums are, of course, the answer to avoiding most every Westernized (and other)flaws, in my opinion. That is a must. Accountability is an enormous factor in a successful life.

She told me yesterday she wants to adopt and not to have her own children. At this, I quickly admonished her, listing out the mitzvot which tell us marriage and childbearing/rearing are essential to being complete. Also that there are so many bad people in the worl reproducing, that it would be criminal not to combat that force by not having good, Jewish, world-repairing, tour-de-force children which will reflect the image of HaSh-m in their daily lives. She thought of that a long while and mended her argument. She is a strong one this one, and logic is often all that appeals to her. Whew!

There are some fine families here in the U.S., and although my oldest is desirous to marry as soon as I allow it, I have yet to see a good match and leave that timing in the hand of HaSh-m. I am fairly doubtful they will marry here. Their (our) ideas are far to middle-eastern for many Jews here (we still kiss the tips of our fingers and touch our hands to the shoes of those family elders when they enter our homes; what is seen as good manners to us, is considered debasing to many here. Perhaps this explains our strong ties to the Indians in our community, where these gestures are commonplace).

Tzipporah did meet a fine young man who is from Russia. He speaks ony Hebrew and Russian and she has given her Sundays ot studying Russian for the last several months to be able to speak with him because he is lonely. It made the vice proncipal tear up when he heard this because he said he has been concerned for this young man's solitude but never even entertained the idea of actually learning his language. She has been so inspirational. Tzipporah Simcha--appropriately named, just as my little cerebral Yemina Yemima is the strength of my right hand, and also delicate as a dove. I am very proud of them, and spend every waking moment with them when we aren't in school. They have good souls and are great companions.

I will miss their constant good company when they do marry... selfish I guess. Our children are but lent to us...

quote:

Originally posted by David Ben-Abraham:

We find another story about a young man who was handsome, and who grew long his locks of hair. Once, when passing by a placid pool of water, he saw his reflection in the water. He was overcome by his own beauty, insomuch that began to think of himself with ill-fancy and conceit. He decided on that day to make himself a Nazirite vow, meaning that after 30-days he would have to shave off his hair and offer it upon the altar. In addition, he could not become defiled by a grave or by a dead corpse, neither drink any wine nor fruit from the vine.
After completing his appointed time, he came to offer his sacrifices in Jerusalem. The high priest, who was wont to eat of those sacrifices, was so impressed by the young man's motives for becoming a Nazir that he said to him that normally he would not eat of other Nazirite offerings, but he would gladly eat of his!

I just found the full, unabridged story! It's written in Tosefta Nazirus 4:7.

"Simeon the Just said: In all my days, I have never eaten the guilt-offering of a Nazirite (Heb. אשם נזיר) except once. There was an incident concerning a certain [young man] who came to me from the South. Now I took notice of him that he had lovely eyes and was handsome, and that his locks fell down in curls [upon his head]. I said to him: 'My son, what did you see to destroy such beautiful hair?' He said to me: 'I was a shepherd in my city, and I came to fill up water from the river. I then looked upon my reflection [that was shown on the water's surface], and my natural inclination became distracted within me, seeking to remove me from this world! I then said to that [evil] nature that is within me, O wicked one! You could not find on that which to become haughty, except on that which one day shall become dust, worms and maggots!? Behold! I take it upon myself to have you shaven for the sake of heaven!' [At hearing this], I lowered my head and kissed him upon his head. I said to him: 'My son, may others like unto yourself multiply, who, in Israel, perform the will of the Omnipresent! You have performed the Scripture that says: A man or woman who is hard-pressed to make a vow, etc.' "

THANKYOU for this. I love and cherish these stories with all my heart. They are invaluable teaching tools for the children. Thankyou and do be encouraged to share others you find inspirational!