I came across the following on mail list for the Bet Shemesh community in Israel. While I don't agree with everything the author wrote - I think there are interesting points for discussion. Here is the quote (in part): RBS = Ramat Bet Shemesh
quote:
For those of you fortunate to have missed it, last evening there was a "demonstration" in RBS Kanyon. Two Rabbonim who are considered "Mora D'asra" along with 30 - 50 other men who should have been home helping their wives at 5 PM were busy making a rukus and then entering business establishments in the Kanyon. In two of these establishments, Bistro and Zol Po, fighting ensued. I was in Zol Lemahadrin and from the manner of their entrance and demeanor I felt SS stormtroopers had just stormed the place. Then one of the Rabbonim proceeded to state we have Takanot we want them instituted.... Among the items being fussed about is the dress of other shoppers. Solution: Men hours and women hours. Leave the message for a minute, I am upset about the delivery. I work with mostly traditional or non religious people. Do you have any idea the impression this behavior made on everyone in the store? (shoppers, workers...) Does anyone truly think that in Shamayim the Aibeshter was shedding tears of Nachas? He was not! The same attitude of we want this done our way NOW is what has left the Agudas Yisrael with the same amount of seats in the Knesset from its inception until today. The population in the Charedi Velt has exploded but their political clout in seats in the Kenneset does not represant this. Instead what would have be 60 years of opportunity to be Mekarav all of Am Yisrael - Chillul Hashem remains in vast quantity. 60 years of turning others off from Torah. Noone who witnessed any of these "demonstrators" demeanor or action will seek to come closer to the our Father in heaven. Instead they will run as far as they can to distance themselves from hooligans like the ones that charged into the stores last night. Which is how and why we have Shinui.
I think both sides have points (although both seem a little over zealous). Any thoughts?
Posts: 41 | Location: Bet Shemesh, Israel | Registered: March 29, 2005
These kinds of things happen a lot.Different groups of people have different views on whats supposed to be.These guys want men houirs and women hours - not happening.They have a strict view on men and women congrgating in the same area.When they go in and cause a ruckus its a chillul hashem but its their choice.Its just like the Lubavitch who go around NYC putting tefillin and offering a lulav and esrog to every goy who walks by or a pretty girl(ive seen it)There isnt much else to say.Chillul hashem is one of the worst sins.
Posts: 56 | Location: new york | Registered: March 20, 2005
Maybe we should try to see the good points in other individuals and groups, instead spending time and energy bashing them. We don't grow by being critical of others (only of ourselves), but by learning and adopting the positive points that we can pick up from everyone. Chazal state in Avot "Who is wise? He who learns from EVERYONE".
Posts: 38 | Location: Jerusalem | Registered: March 31, 2005
It's true that sometimes someone needs rebuke inorder to learn and grow. But it should be done privately face to face and not publically. We should try to help them, instead of embaressing them in front of the world.
Posts: 35 | Location: los angeles | Registered: April 04, 2005
The incident that Gilad posted is indeed a very disturbing one. At an earlier point in modern Israel's short history, forceful demonstrations against non-Torah behavior may have been called for, but we live in a different time. The early enemies of Torah in Israel came from relgious homes and understood what they were fighting against. Today in Israel, as well as in America the non-Torah behavior comes out of ignorance, and therefore must be handled differently. In other words, the earlier secular Israelis were the wicked son whom we are taught by the Haggadah to break his teeth. Today they are the simple son or aino yodaia lishol who must be handled in a kinder way. Admittedly, their are still wicked sons around, particularly in the Knesset, but they are the vast minority.
I think the way this and other demonstrations like it are handled is coming out of fear of the secular influence. Which I believe is only counter productive. Don't we influence our own children more when we present a confidence that we are doing the right thing and when our efforts to influence our secular brethren obviously come from love and concern. Along with the population growth of the religious community their should also come a greater confidence in our way of life. This is occuring in much of our people and can be seen in the sophistication of the Kiruv community and their approaches to relating to secular Jews.
Posts: 1 | Location: Baltimore | Registered: May 20, 2005
I agree. The way to help fellow Jews do teshuva is to show them that we care. Otherwise they think we're just critisizing them. And if we show them our love and concern for them then maybe we'll be able to influence them.
I read a story in which this rabbi in Israel was walking on shabbos and saw a Jewish man smoking. He told him not to smoke on shabbos and the other man said, 'what do you care.' The rabbi replied warmly, 'I Do care, you are my brother.' And the man put down the cigerett.
Posts: 35 | Location: los angeles | Registered: April 04, 2005
I feel the same way. Now, In order to comply with the Law of Moises given at Mount Sinai and continue having the blessing of El Shaddai full of sense of creativity and happiness the Am Y´Israel has to understand not outpacing Torah rules that ultimate are the meaning of our existence.
Posts: 81 | Location: Puerto Ordaz, venezuela | Registered: November 23, 2005
the process of tshuvah requires introspection. all of us in the cheredi world need to change our attitude to how can we all truly live a life of torah and mitzvos. this starts with equitable admissions procedures for all charedi children to charedi schools. when our own children are educated in ahavas yisroel, g'milus chesudim, torah and mitvos others will follow them. no bullying necessary, ever.
Posts: 226 | Location: New York | Registered: September 26, 2005
Originally posted by Leiser: Your example of Lubavitch - never mind Chilul Hashem, what about Avoydeh Zoroh?
It is true that some Lubavitcher's have taken m'sheecheeyut to a ridiculous extreme. However, as a movement, they follow the Rebbe's directives with such mesirat nefesh that the rest of us should take a lesson. There are young schluchim who are willing to spend their whole lives in Uzbekistan, Thailand, Germany, Idaho, and places where no other frum Jew would consider living permanently to spread Yiddishkeit. I wouldn't suggest that we do that but I'm awed that they are willing and even happy to. While Jews who live in places like Kyrgzstan are anxious to leave Chabad is going in. I'm very against the concept that anyone knows exactly who the Moshiach is, has his picture and identity all over and insists he will come back from the olam haneshamos to be Moshiach. (How do those m'shichistim know that anyway? Who told them? Certainly not the Rebbe. He never claimed that.) Still one should give credit where credit is due and try not to spread possible loshon hara and machlokes. The internet is a very effective place to spread loshon hara and machlokes since hundreds, maybe thousands of people read these blogs daily.
Posts: 49 | Location: Queens, NY | Registered: August 25, 2005
does the term "the rebbe" imply a universality to whichever group's rebbe the speaker has in mind?
if there is a rabbi from whom I learned the majority of my Torah I believe I can accurately use the term rebbe, that he is my rebbe. This might be my first year Hebrew school teacher (except that mine was a she), or it could be my shul's rabbi, or any of a number people. And I think the term is perfectly valid for any rabbi teaching a class in a school, that his students refer to him as the rebbe of that class.
I would never mean to imply that my rebbe must be another person's rebbe. And I am similarly uncomfortable whenever someone else talks about their rebbe or one particular group's rebbe in such universal ways as "The Rebbe".
If my concern has any validity, I would like to know what terms could be used to describe, for example, the late Lubavitcher Rebbe, which wouldn't irritate those who would find the term "The Rebbe" to be irritating?
I have also discovered that it doesn't endear me to those who like to use the term "The Rebbe" to refer their particular rebbe to ask them "Which Rebbe?" particularly if it is at each invocation of that term which was not immediately preceided by an unambiguous definition of their meaning.
Has anyone else made a similar discovery?
Posts: 897 | Location: USA | Registered: May 30, 2004
it is not appropriate to ask which rebbe. anybody who says otherwise is attempting to negate the contributions of other valid gedolei hatorah. that's wrong.
Posts: 226 | Location: New York | Registered: September 26, 2005
MK Fink, shouldn't one be expected to say which "Rebbe" they are referring to? Therefore, if one does not mention which one, then it should be okay for someone to ask.
Posts: 854 | Location: USA | Registered: March 10, 2005
Originally posted by Sam-: MK Fink, shouldn't one be expected to say which "Rebbe" they are referring to? Therefore, if one does not mention which one, then it should be okay for someone to ask.
sorry i contradicted myself accidentally. yes, in fact it is extremely unfortunate that people attempt to diminish the importance of other gedolei hatorah by implying that there is only one rebbe, and of course it is their rebbe. and i whole heartedly agree with the practice of saying which rebbe. in fact i do it myself regullary even if i think i know who they are talking about.
Posts: 226 | Location: New York | Registered: September 26, 2005
I think that in this discussion of how to relate to other Jews, we have to make an important distinction between Mitzvot Bein Adam LaMakon (commandments between an individual and G-d) and Bein Adam Lechaveiro (commandments between individuals).
This distinction, which applies from the time the Torah was given, is the clearest indication that two 'sets' of behaviours are required when dealing with others.
In general, I would have thought that Rabbi Akiva's principle of 'love your neighbour like (you love) yourself' would suffice here. I have heard it taught that this actually means that you must learn to love yourself first, before you can ever be able to relate to someone correctly. It seems to me that people who cause difficulties in shopping malls do not fully understand this principle.
Also, I cannot remember which Gadol Hador said it, but some great Rabbi said that if one sees someone do an aveirah, it actually reflects badly on oneself, because if you were a G-d fearing person, people wouldn't do aveirot in front of you.
Therefore, look inwards before looking at others.
Posts: 49 | Location: Israel | Registered: November 12, 2005
Also, I cannot remember which Gadol Hador said it, but some great Rabbi said that if one sees someone do an aveirah, it actually reflects badly on oneself, because if you were a G-d fearing person, people wouldn't do aveirot in front of you.
QUOTE]
The Besht. Aka the baal shem tov.
Posts: 123 | Location: Olam HaZeh (currently) | Registered: November 10, 2005
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