pshat
that is my point.
textbooks are supposed to be universal, like public schools are supposed to be universal.
the problem is that human behavior are not universal. and i don't want to live in a place that is universal, before moshiach.
i am sure that the pre-moshiach version would not be to my liking.
therefore social and psycho sciences are problematic at best.

Allow me to take your questions one at a time.

quote:

Originally posted by MK Fink:
so you totally negate any metaphysical or spiritual signifigance that previous posters have brought up.

Spirituality does not keep people away from trouble: the Hamas and Islamic Jihad leaders are very spiritual and may even believe in what they say, but that does not make them better persons and does not make them value human life. A great many SS officers were good musicians. Regarding metaphysics, it was first implemented as a philosophical method by the Greek philosophers, not by the Jews.

That said, no, I do not negate the importance of Jewish spirituality.

quote:

your concern is keeping your house kosher; do you place equal emphasis on your house and yourself?

Yes, I do, but it is much easier to keep self kosher than it is to keep the house kosher: it doesn't take any physical effort.

quote:

you equate other hobbies with torah (chas v;shulom); are they really equal?

Of course not. And no, I do not equate the two. I was not even talking about comparing the significance of learning Torah with the importance of hobbies. Let me make my point more clear. In order to stay out of trouble, one must keep their mind occupied. For an observant Jew, Torah is what occupies his or her mind. For a non-observant, assimilated Jew, something else takes its place. We are not talking here about returning the lost children. We are analyzing the issue of it being possible to stay out of trouble for assimilated Jews, and my point is that yes, it is possible, but only if their mind is occupied with something that does keep them out of trouble.

quote:

Originally posted by MosheYisraeli:
Moses was suckled and raised by his own mother. Of course, he knew he was a Hebrew from birth. He had been taught Torah values from birth.

It's one thing to know something and another thing to realize it. In fact, it would not be incorrect (although admittedly a little cynical) to say that Moses was an assimilated Hebrew for the first 80 years of his life - first as an Egyptian prince of Israelite origin, and later as Yithro's son-in-law. He was well versed in the ways of Egyptian aristocracy and in the ways of the desert wanderers. But he outgrew his being assimilated and rose above it and returned to Hashem and then returned to his people.

quote:

If I were a strict humanist who looks at humans as simply ascended animals, I might agree with you. But there is such a thing as human consciousness which is uniquely human and different from animals.

Of course there is such thing Animals only act by instinct. On the other hand, animals do not build crematoria and gas chambers and do not invent new ways to kill each other.

quote:

Beyond that there is a Jewish soul which is uniquely Jewish and different from other humans. If you choose not to believe that I cannot go further in any discussion with you. But you don't have to look very far to realize that this is indeed a fact. The evidence is overwhelming.

Of course, but we also are a part of the human race. It's just that this part willingly accepted "the blessing and the curse" of Torah. Since the acceptance was at will, those who choose to remain assimilated can't really be blamed. I feel sorry for those, but I don't consider them potential villains.

quote:

Further; I didn't say assimilated Jews will end up in trouble. I said they are at greater risk for trouble.

That may be true, if their mind remains idle.

quote:

But what I mean by trouble may be quite different from what you mean by trouble. A Jew can live a very good, moral and treif eating life just like his Goy counterpart. However, the Jew would be in much greater trouble than his Goy counterpart. Why? The Goy does not have the same obligations as his Jewish counterpart. A Jewish man may go his entire life without ever donning his tefillin. To his Goy counterpart it's no big deal, but to the Jew it has profound mystical significance. So what I mean by being at greater risk for trouble is quite different. You may be a perfectly good person Goyishly speaking but have a lot of tikun to make Jewishly.

A person can only be judged by the laws he/she agrees to live by.

quote:

Originally posted by Alex:

A person can only be judged by the laws he/she agrees to live by.

is this quoting confuscious (confusion)or the dali lama, because it certainly is not torah hashkofa.

No, it is not quoting Confucius. Our laws are formulated in the Torah (Written and Oral), and these are the laws we are to be judged by. That's all that matters.

Rob, the reasoning behind this has to do with methodological principles. The answer is to be found in psychological methodology (and its underlying philosophical assumptions).

You are , from how you asked your question, seeming to be seeking the basic answer too "high", too superficially. Research studies are not the place to go here ,but of course they are illustrative. They also have to be treated with great caution as evidenced by the contradictory results that emerge.

MK appeared to me to be mererely giving you an illustration of the methodological reasoning. I got the point. But I would expect that such research, if done and done appropriately, must support his assertion. It has to do with the number of people of a certain sort in a sample of a population. There are a lot of Jews in New York (and for this reason I have often wished I lived there).

There are a lot of different topics here and I am interested in all of them. I may comment on other topics later but right now I just want to make a contribution regarding the metaphysical/spiritual versus what can be "obseved" and measured.

[By the way, I know I am walking on a minefield here, but I am trying to keep it simple. I hope it is not too simplified. If it is, please correct me as I am interested to hear your corrections.]

Simon Blackburn in "The Oxford Dictionary of Philosophy" notes that:

the term [metaphysics] is now applied to
any enquiry that raises questions about
reality that lie beyond or behind those
capable of being tackled by the methods of
science. (1994, p.240)

I think it would be helpful if we bear in mind this distinction. The discussion was jumping between "levels". Both seem relevant though but one has to be very careful with the tricky task of incorporating both aspects.

I myself am very interested in the metaphysical. But I am also a social scientist. There is a problem here. I have found my own solution but it is an ongoing project. In the end, regarding the metaphysical, I choose what connects with me in a kaboom way. Then I reason within these parameters. The likes of Hume and the logical positivists would say this is crazy. Some people say religion is crazy, for similar reasons. Ok, I see the point when I consider their arguments. But their arguments are based on assumptions: in the end they are making an act of faith too. I go where I feel G-d calls me and I am glad there are other "nuts" like me who keep me company. There is so much that is unknown and we just have to make the best of it: we can't tie off all the loose ends - only G-d can.

Rabbi Joseph Soloveitchik was well aware of the paradoxical nature of human existence. In " Halakhic Man", he says:

Halakhic man reflects two opposing selves:
two disparate images are embodied within
his soul ans spirit.On the one hand he is
as far removed from homo religiosus as
east is from west and is identical, in
many respects, to prosaic cognitive man;
on the other hand he is a man of God,
possessor of an ontological approach that
is devoted to God and a world view
saturated with the radiance of the Divine
Presence.(1983,p.3)

I don't know if this has helped or had made the confusion worse. And I hope it makes sense. I find this sort of thing a great challenge but it is of vital interest to me. Please feel free to refine my thought.

quote:

Originally posted by Alex:
Allow me to take your questions one at a time.

quote:

Originally posted by MK Fink:
so you totally negate any metaphysical or spiritual signifigance that previous posters have brought up.

Spirituality does not keep people away from trouble: the Hamas and Islamic Jihad leaders are very spiritual and may even believe in what they say, but that does not make them better persons and does not make them value human life. A great many SS officers were good musicians. Regarding metaphysics, it was first implemented as a philosophical method by the Greek philosophers, not by the Jews.

That said, no, I do not negate the importance of Jewish spirituality.

quote:

your concern is keeping your house kosher; do you place equal emphasis on your house and yourself?

Yes, I do, but it is much easier to keep self kosher than it is to keep the house kosher: it doesn't take any physical effort.

quote:

you equate other hobbies with torah (chas v;shulom); are they really equal?

Of course not. And no, I do not equate the two. I was not even talking about comparing the significance of learning Torah with the importance of hobbies. Let me make my point more clear. In order to stay out of trouble, one must keep their mind occupied. For an observant Jew, Torah is what occupies his or her mind. For a non-observant, assimilated Jew, something else takes its place. We are not talking here about returning the lost children. We are analyzing the issue of it being possible to stay out of trouble for assimilated Jews, and my point is that yes, it is possible, but only if their mind is occupied with something that does keep them out of trouble.

Rosemary, those are two very interesting quotes.

What's particularly fascinating with the definition of metaphysics is that it is very volatile in the sense that what was metaphysical even 100 years ago becomes scientific facts today: indeed, the Creation was considered to belong to the realm of metaphysics until the Big Bang and inflationary universe theories became scientifically proven truths. Similarly, until Einstein proved mathematically the special relativity, the possibility of time flowing at different "rates", depending on the speed at which you are moving, was in the realm of metaphysics. True, our teachers had long before poetically said that for Hashem a thousand years is but an instant. But it was not a scientific fact at that time. Today we know from physics that for an entity moving at the speed of light time slows down to a stop, and all events appear happening simultaneously.

That said, I would like to mention that the metaphysical will always be in and around us, as there is always something that cannot be measured or even mathematically inferred.

I agree.

I would be more comfortable though, if we adapt your statement a bit to make clear what you seem to have implicit in it, ie " what was considered to be metaphysical even 100 years ago becomes considered to be scientific facts today". Some people do not make the distinction between relative truth (ours) and absolute truth (G-d's)so I like to spell things out carefully when we are on ground where different mindsets are likely to be present. The old Enligtenment bogy re the accessibility of Truth is very present in Western Society. Indeed, I had to journey into clarity re this matter and it was a real struggle for a while.

Postmodern philosophy has something to offer as a wake up call re this matter. But it is badly warped, generally speaking, despite its being able to lead one to some good insights. I think this is because it ignores the metaphysical, if not necessarily rejecting it altogether (hence rejecting G-d).

In the end, "metaphysical" is a human distinction. There is really only one reality only we cannot grasp it - that seems humanly impossible and we should be humble enough to accept it (walk humbly with our G-d - Micah)

quote:

Originally posted by Alex:
Rosemary, those are two very interesting quotes.

What's particularly fascinating with the definition of metaphysics is that it is very volatile in the sense that what was metaphysical even 100 years ago becomes scientific facts today: indeed, the Creation was considered to belong to the realm of metaphysics until the Big Bang and inflationary universe theories became scientifically proven truths. Similarly, until Einstein proved mathematically the special relativity, the possibility of time flowing at different "rates", depending on the speed at which you are moving, was in the realm of metaphysics. True, our teachers had long before poetically said that for Hashem a thousand years is but an instant. But it was not a scientific fact at that time. Today we know from physics that for an entity moving at the speed of light time slows down to a stop, and all events appear happening simultaneously.

That said, I would like to mention that the metaphysical will always be in and around us, as there is always something that cannot be measured or even mathematically inferred.

Rosemary - yes, thank you for the corrections. In my "day job", I write software for numerical analysis and data modeling. It is convenient to break up the data into a deterministic part (what we know) and a random part (which is not really random, but we have no way to measure it - yet). But it really is one and the same data stream. In our process of learning about the world, we artificially divide the whole into two aspects - the physical and the metaphysical. But it really is all one, and the division is merely a convenience-driven simplification (analysis, to use a more sophisticated word) invented by us in order for our puny mind to comprehend at least a part of it.

quote:

Originally posted by Rosemary:
I guess I am basically wondering if there is something about having a Jewish soul that is cut off from Judaism that leads the person to do wild or crazy things, etc. And I am interested in learning the explanation to this if it is true.

And, if it is true, what is the cure? I have some ideas on this one, but I am sure I don't know that much on this score really.

Here is what the Gemara in Beitzah 21a says:

A Tanna taught in the name of R. Meir: Why was the Torah given to Israel? Because they are impetuous. The School of R. Ishmael taught: ‘At His right hand was a fiery law unto them’; the Holy One, blessed be He, said: These are worthy to be given the fiery law. Some say: The nature of these are like fire, for had not the Law been given to Israel no nation or tongue could withstand them. And this is what R. Simeon b. Lakish said: There are three distinguished in strength [fierce]: Israel among the nations, the dog among animals, and the cock among birds. Some say: Also the goat among small cattle. And some say: Also the caper-bush among shrubs.

Rashi explains there that the constant study of Torah will subdue us and humble our hearts.

From here we see that the Jews are fire and the only cure is the Torah itself. Never give up and you will get there!

Dear Rav Mitterhoff:

Does this principle ever get manifested in a personal level, that a particular Jew will be treated as intolerable among the nations, or that their tongues (speech) cannot help but speaking unfairly or harshly?

Or conversely given this principle, if a Jew experiences such alienation, is there a message here to explain it?

Does this perhaps explain why Nimrod wanted to throw Avraham Avinu into the fiery furnace despite our seeing how effective Avraham was diplomatically in travelling within the circles of the 4 and 5 kings, and with Pharoah and Avimelech?

Hi Rob,

I liked all your questions.

What I wanted to add was that , on the subject of alienated and persecuted Jews in a gentile context, this is a topic that has been on my mind for quite a while .The matter crops up periodically when I find myself in conflict with gentiles who do not share my ethical foundation. There can be a number of questions I find myself facing, like:

1) Should I have kept quiet (not rocked the boat) ?;

2) should I not have said I was a Jew ? (if I did. I find I don't all that often in total gentile situations, whether from having inherited my assimilated family's paranoia about "coming out" as a Jew; a desire not to cause trouble for Jews generally by my behaviour; or whatever ).


3) Am I reacting appropriately?

Apart from such questioning, there is the big one of is such a clash of worldviews and a Jew's insistence on at least sticking by what he or she thinks is right, what leads to a lot of punishment, even annihilation, being meted out to Jews. I know from my personal experience among some people close to me, eg in-laws (I am married to a gentile) that my refusal to join in or endorse certain beliefs or behaviour has not been well recieved ,and I did not make a big thing of it.

Put like this, I am adding another dimension to your question, moving it to explicity factor in practising as well as assimilated Jews. I'm not doing it to correct you. I'm just adding in my own wonderings, etc, filling out the topic.

quote:

Originally posted by rob:
Dear Rav Mitterhoff:

Does this principle ever get manifested in a personal level, that a particular Jew will be treated as intolerable among the nations, or that their tongues (speech) cannot help but speaking unfairly or harshly?

Or conversely given this principle, if a Jew experiences such alienation, is there a message here to explain it?

Does this perhaps explain why Nimrod wanted to throw Avraham Avinu into the fiery furnace despite our seeing how effective Avraham was diplomatically in travelling within the circles of the 4 and 5 kings, and with Pharoah and Avimelech?

Dear Rabbi,

Thanks. That really fills it out for me.

And I found it very consoling personally. I have always felt like fire. I am glad I am not bad in the sense of odd because of it. And it is good to know that there is an antidote, the study of Torah. I find that to be true from my own experience.

About the other Jews I was talking about, the assimilated ones who are still lost, perhaps it follows that they too need Torah? Maybe there is no other way except that they may find bits elsewhere of what is in Torah ?

quote:

Originally posted by Rabbi Mitterhoff:

quote:

Originally posted by Rosemary:
I guess I am basically wondering if there is something about having a Jewish soul that is cut off from Judaism that leads the person to do wild or crazy things, etc. And I am interested in learning the explanation to this if it is true.

And, if it is true, what is the cure? I have some ideas on this one, but I am sure I don't know that much on this score really.

Here is what the Gemara in Beitzah 21a says:

A Tanna taught in the name of R. Meir: Why was the Torah given to Israel? Because they are impetuous. The School of R. Ishmael taught: ‘At His right hand was a fiery law unto them’; the Holy One, blessed be He, said: These are worthy to be given the fiery law. Some say: The nature of these are like fire, for had not the Law been given to Israel no nation or tongue could withstand them. And this is what R. Simeon b. Lakish said: There are three distinguished in strength [fierce]: Israel among the nations, the dog among animals, and the cock among birds. Some say: Also the goat among small cattle. And some say: Also the caper-bush among shrubs.

Rashi explains there that the constant study of Torah will subdue us and humble our hearts.

From here we see that the Jews are fire and the only cure is the Torah itself. Never give up and you will get there!

Hi Alex.

I liked the way you put that. That sort of thinking fits me very well.

quote:

Originally posted by Alex:
Rosemary - yes, thank you for the corrections. In my "day job", I write software for numerical analysis and data modeling. It is convenient to break up the data into a deterministic part (what we know) and a random part (which is not really random, but we have no way to measure it - yet). But it really is one and the same data stream. In our process of learning about the world, we artificially divide the whole into two aspects - the physical and the metaphysical. But it really is all one, and the division is merely a convenience-driven simplification (analysis, to use a more sophisticated word) invented by us in order for our puny mind to comprehend at least a part of it.

Hi MK.

I've been sitting on some of this post of yours, thinking about it, the bit about making my own fantastic Jewish family. And then there was shabbat. Ours here in Australia in now over. We are having a lovely warm summer's night.

At first I found your comment about the family I could make to be consoling as I was thinking of the joys and sense of belonging to the family of Jews in the broad sense. And I was thinking of the joy of connectedness I feel with my fellow Jews at the synagogue where I go. And this even though I am still a considerable "outsider" in the sense that I am still a fair bit apart in most ways though it is getting better. Rather than linking closely to other Jews at the synagogue, I seem to attract the flotsam and jetsum of non Jews who come and go. That's interesting in its own way (if not exactly enjoyable and with occasional ghastly down moments) and I am glad to extend them a little hospitality , but it isn't like my fitting in there, like the member of a real life family in the more usual sense. I have had to consciously accept that what comes is as it should be, and to focus on what I do get, which is considerable, and to going with the flow (of G-d's creating).

Then, regarding your comment, I later suddenly wondered if you were talking about making my own fantastic nuclear (persona) family . I wish ! That is one of the things I have been working on letting go. I am not young and I am married to a gentile and have four teenage children , with resultant challenges I would not wish on anyone. I don't like my chances. I live in a tragedy and it seems irredeamable.

quote:

Originally posted by MK Fink:

quote:

Originally posted by Rosemary:
1. So, what I am thinking of in terms of behaving badly, without going into the details, is not about being non-observant as such, but the big stuff, like the Ten Commandments; the really bad stuff. And I have this in my face and have to deal with it.

2. It would be so nice to be from some fantastic Jewish family , but that is not my case and I just have to accept it and not let it get to me personally.

1. the yetzer hara is a fierce enemy. it is vanquished by torah, mitzvos, maasim tovim a and tefilla.

2. you can be from a fantastic jewish family. you need to make one. don't let the yetzer harah, or any of it's human messengers stop you.

quote:

Originally posted by MK Fink:
pshat
that is my point.
textbooks are supposed to be universal, like public schools are supposed to be universal.
the problem is that human behavior are not universal.

What about samples of populations; there needs to be some sort of way to evaluate human behavior to some degree.

quote:

and i don't want to live in a place that is universal, before moshiach.

Can you clarify this a little more. I'm not following. Isn't the whole world "universal"?

quote:

i am sure that the pre-moshiach version would not be to my liking.

How do you know "for sure"?

quote:

therefore social and psycho sciences are problematic at best.

How are they problematic? Don't we say that "wisdom among the gentiles, we believe in"?

quote:

Originally posted by Rosemary:
There are a lot of Jews in New York (and for this reason I have often wished I lived there).

Real Estate can be pretty cheap today, consider moving if you so wish to