I realize we have discussed this about a year ago--although I don't remember where on the forum, and I believe someone said that it was technically kosher for a man to have up to seven wives (providing it was customary in his land) and a melech of Yisrael to have up to 70 (?). But I was reading in Devarim 17:15 and onward and it says:

15 you shall be free to set a king over yourself, one chosen by the Lord your God. Be sure to set as king over yourself one of your own people; you must not set a foreigner over you, one who is not your kinsman. 16 Moreover, he shall not keep many horses or send people back to Egypt to add to his horses, since the Lord has warned you, "You must not go back that way again." 17 And he shall not have many wives, lest his heart go astray; nor shall he amass silver and gold to excess.

Is this not what happened to Melech Shlomo--that not only had he many wives as this specifically warns against, but also foreign ones? What says the Talmud on this? I think we also mentioned Shalom Bayis as a reason for discouraging this in modernity. Also I heard somewhere (probably here somewhere) that Yisrael was not recognizing more than one wife upon entering the country and receiving citizenship? Or was that only if a man tried to marry a second wife after he was a citizen?

Quote "a melech of Yisrael to have up to 70 (?). "

Though it's a Machlokes, the main shita there is 18

Quote "Is this not what happened to Melech Shlomo--that not only had he many wives as this specifically warns against"

I'll bring the paraphrase of Kolel Iyun Hadaf to Sanhedrin 21b

(f) Question (R. Yitzchak): Why weren't the reasons for Mitzvos revealed?

(g) Answer (R. Yitzchak): The reasons for two Mitzvos were revealed, and the greatest Chacham stumbled in them.

1. It says "Lo Yarbeh Lo Nashim" - Shlomo thought, I will take many, they will not veer my heart; i. Ultimately, they did - "Hitu Es Levavo".

2. It says "Lo Yarbeh Lo Susim" - Shlomo thought, I will acquire many, we will not return to Mitzrayim;

i. Ultimately, they did - "Va'Tetzei Merkavah mi'Mitzrayim".

Quote "but also foreign ones?"

They converted

Thankyou, Rav. That helped me tremendously. What about the stance in Yisrael with regard to more than one wife? Are you familiar with their secular law governing this? The Halachic one for today?

Yocheved,

quote:

I realize we have discussed this about a year ago--although I don't remember where on the forum, and I believe someone said that it was technically kosher for a man to have up to seven wives (providing it was customary in his land) and a melech of Yisrael to have up to 70 (?). But I was reading in Devarim 17:15 and onward and it says:

Halacha does not allow 70 wives...even 7 wives. If one were to have more than one wife, his responsibilities to each wife do not diminish. So no man can take care of the physical, financial and sexual needs of 7 women. It's physically impossible.

Shlomo HaMelech's wives were not wives in the same sense we are discussing now. Many of them were "treaty wives" given by foreign kingdoms to "seal" alliances. Many of them were also "concubines" who wouldn't be considered to be wives by our nomenclature today. They would be recognized more as mistresses. Because Shlomo was a rightoues man, he considered them wives according to halacha.

Also one other thing--less important but stumping me--my girls came home and told me that I had used the word "susayim" incorrectly, that there could only be the ending "ayim" if there were a PAIR of something (as in a permanent pair like hands) and not for two of something like susim. Your post just put me in mind of it. Is that right? I thought "im" referred to three or more of anything, and "ayim" was for anything that was in a pair (permanent or no). Is there no such word as "susayim?". In other words they are saying that two horses would stil just be susim. That doesn't sound right to me--but my Hebrew is laughable.

Avi--OK you reminded me of more detail of the Yisrael issue--I believe they said something like that a man could not have more than one wife, but could have a mistress, and she would have equal rights (?) Which is aweful to me, but hten, it isn't halachic law they are necessarily practicing over there.

As to the treaty wives, alright that makes sense. Perhaps that is why I remember there being a greater allowance for Kings than other Jewish men. I still seem to remember the Yemenite Jews having up to seven wives, but maybe I am mistaken. David Ben Abraham is from there, perhaps he could enlighten? I need to find that original thread.

The Gemara Tractate Yevamos 44a states

Sound advice was given: Only four [wives] but no more, so that each may receive one marital visit a month.

This is also brought in the Shulchan Aruch Even Ha'Ezer 1:9.

It refers to a Talmid Chacham [Torah Scholar] whose "Ona" [obligatory marital relations] is once a week (on Friday night). With 4 wives he is able to fulfill his Ona at least once a month with each wife.

HERE IT IS: I found the threads dealing with this:

http://globalyeshiva.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/728100487/m...021094881#9021094881

and

http://globalyeshiva.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/904606335/m...781098922#7781098922

Both were by David.

Oh, ok, Rav, so you are saying four was the limit, not seven because Halachicly they could be covered according to Onah laws. Ok.

Halacha does not allow 70 wives...even 7 wives. If one were to have more than one wife, his responsibilities to each wife do not diminish. So no man can take care of the physical, financial and sexual needs of 7 women. It's physically impossible.
.[/QUOTE]

Thankyou for answering my question, Avi.

quote:

It refers to a Talmid Chacham [Torah Scholar] whose "Ona" [obligatory marital relations] is once a week (on Friday night). With 4 wives he is able to fulfill his Ona at least once a month with each wife.

I haven't actually seen this definition of Ona before. Am I correctly interpreting this quote to imply that Ona refers to only when he is fulfilling out of his obligation, and not when he is motivated for a mutual or selfish desire?

Another subject I have not found discussed is whether a "night together" implies multiple encounters in the same night between the couple? Or whether his Ona obligation ends with one encounter regardless of whether she has found it sufficiently gratifying?

The woman has to be satisfied.

quote "It refers to a Talmid Chacham [Torah Scholar] whose "Ona" [obligatory marital relations] is once a week (on Friday night). With 4 wives he is able to fulfill his Ona at least once a month with each wife."

Theoretically, since nowadays, where we don't work so hard, so Rav Moshe said that Onas talmid Chacham is twice a week, maybe you'll be able to have 8 wives.

Of course, this is all theoretical to us Ahkinazim, we have a Cherem Rabainu Gershom, not to have more than one wife.

Of course, this is all theoretical to us Ahkinazim, we have a Cherem Rabainu Gershom, not to have more than one wife. END QUOTE

Precisely. But I would still like to know what is acceptable (technically) among Sephardim.

Even for Ashkenazim Cherem Rabainu Gershom was not meant to be permanent. Early on it was thaught that this cherem was only supposed to be until the year 1240. But later it was decided that it was meant to go on 1000 years. Either way the time has passed.
It is a very problematic cherem as there are mitsvoth in the Tora which assume that it is ok to have more than one wife.
One such mitsva is Yibum.

Now some may argue that there is the opinion that today it is preferable to perform Chalitza over Yibum. That was a machloket among rishonim. That actually may be the opinion of the Ashkenazi authorities.

But I believe the Spharadi authorities don't hold that way.

Anyways I have no interest in having more than one wife and am not calling on anyone else to have more than wife.
The Torah allows but certainly does not require having more than one wife. Thus I would say it is preferable to have one wife, as a man has his responsibilities which were mentioned and it is very hard to meet those responsibilities for more than one wife.
Therefore it is a good thing that today that even in the Spharadi World men don't have more than one wife.
But a permanent Cherem forbidding more than one wife still remains very problematic.

Shalom Bayis is paramount anyway--and that is a near impossibility as soon as another woman is in the picture.

quote:

Originally posted by Avi d'Israeli:
Halacha does not allow 70 wives...even 7 wives.

Avi,

Although the Gemara, Tractate Yevamos 44a, might state sound advice and say that only four [wives], but no more, are permitted so that each may receive one marital visit a month, etc., Rambam has ruled in his Mishne Torah, Hilchos Ishus 14:3 that a man can marry as many as one-hundred wives if he wishes to do so! Even this number was only given in order to suggest that there is no limit, except only for a Jewish king, who can marry up to eighteen wives and no more.

As for halacha, this would largely depend upon the group in question. Everything here is contingent upon custom. In Ashkenaz, where the edicts of Rabbeinu Gershom were accepted, a man cannot even marry two wives! But in Yemen, where these edicts were not accepted by the Jewish populace, they continued to take two or three wives. Even today, I can take any man to the city of Rehovoth (in Israel) and show him several men who are still happily married with co-wives. Of course, these all came to Israel from Yemen with their wives. The law of the State does not permit a man to marry co-wives within the boundaries of the State of Israel. On the other hand, any man who makes Aliyah and is married at that time to more than one wife when he comes here, such marriages are recognised by the State.

David

David,
You are correct. I meant the composite effect of halacha. Sure it says you can have as many wives as you want. But when you take into account all the other halachot about treating each wife equitably and fairly and dispensing of your duties as specified in halacha, it's impossible to have even 7 wives. You'd have to be super tzadik whose life revolves around taking care of your wives and nothing else.
Avi