A Very Public Chabad Rabbi once told me "If you find something needed and it's not available - create a movement to supply it!" His intention there was that somehow I kept finding myself in situations or with questions that no one seemed to be addressing - or if they were it wasn't widely known. His feeling was that if nothing was yet in place and I needed it then I couldn't be the only one... (B"H). Having said that... I'd like to ask this and I know it can go a number of directions - which are all welcome of course - but I hope some will concentrate on the question/discussion idea. (Please forgive the length.)

So many wonderful yiden are doing great mitzvoth in the communities of both Jewish/Goyish persuasion... I say it like that because as I read in these forums I see a lot of comments about 'what constitutes the difference between a Jew/Goy person'... Many people state that it's a state of heart toward H"S and Torah and some state that it's a position of birth and an assumption of training. By that it almost causes one to wonder if it's possible for a Non-Jew with a Yiddishe Neshama to be MORE authentically Jewish than a person born of a woman who went to Shul once... and never trained their child.


If a person not raised Jewish (whether Jew/Goy 'by birth or not) is living in or around the Jewish Community and they grow to love the Community, Yiddishkeit, Mitzvoth, Torah and all it's precepts and for all considerations has themselves a 'Yiddishe Neshama' but - either out of ignorance or 'unfortunate birth' is left out of the community for the sake of being a well meaning 'shabbos goy'... How have we served them?

They see the paradise - they see aaliyah, kiruv at it's finest, the joys of so many beautiful things - yet they are excluded and even left to disallusion to 'prove themselves' to the beis din. Not everyone's situation permits what is expected by all - but what does that say then, that H"S doesn't want them to have a Yiddishe Neshama if He gave them one - (that would make H"S confused - which is impossible) or does that mean that it was some act of will that the person no matter how strong their convictions, can't really call themselves a Jew or a convert because they aren't able for some reason to go through the process. I'm concerned that we're becoming... prideful in our quickness to judge situations simply by geographic or financial opportunity.

How much of an aveirah is it then for the community to look the other way and count it off to... lack of true conviction... Example: If a person washed up on shore of a town and all they remembered was their yiddishkeit but the whole country had no Jewish Community - would they be required to prove themselves by moving to some other country that they haven't the money or support to do to prove something H"S gave them? Would they give up on love or finding a Jewish mate because their pedigree is unknown?

My largest concerns here are:
* How many of these people may in fact have been technically Jewish - adopted or lost or something and didn't know it...
* How many of these people will shrug their shoulders and in some cases - not knowing any better - feel a sense of rejection and in desperation think that their only choice to love H"S and His Precepts and be part of a community is to find... Chas V'Shalom some Xtian faction and join that... (I'm not saying they'd know it was a xitan faction..)

I don't know if everyone here believes in the Geulah as we sit in Galus - but what I do know is that I have serious concerns that Geulah could not occur as long as the Jewish Community looks the other way and allows these other groups to assimilate the people who WANT and have a heart to be part of H"S's real community. That is not to say that they must convert or become BT.. but even at this time there is no real celebration of even the B'Nai Noach in the community and I for one (even if it would have no affect on Geulah) feel that is doing the world a great disservice.

Shouldn't we be sharing at least information about BN to those who are sincerely interested? And then shouldn't we at least be making sure there is a BN structure available for people to go toward? To me.. BN should almost be the stepping stone to Judaism because if they observe the many halachic requirements of the non-Jew and still have love and conviction for H"S and Torah to take on all of halacha how much more ready over time would they be to take on the rest of halacha.

I could site several situations... and I'm not saying that a person would knowingly go toward idolatry - I'm just saying that the heart that is keen on observance is rare and should be guarded and held dear whether to join or to be part of H"S's greater observant community. (By that I mean the potential for humanity to observe B'Nai Noach - which is so much better - instead.) How many people would have a place to walk away to - a place to compare/contrast with the idolatrous communities and see that there is a better place to be ... Those same people wouldn't be trying to convert our children or our non-observant members anymore - the benefits to Yiddishkeit would be astronomical.

I one time was given audience to interview a well-known and celebrated Torah-observant author who wrote on these subjects... imagine my surprise and utter sadness when he told me that the observance of religion itself was born of a weaker mind... A crutch for those who could not survive without it - I wont even tell you what he said about H"S. I asked him what made him Jewish if he felt thusly and he told me that he felt it was a 'good life' passed on by tradition through his family and that he upheld family and tradition above all else as the needed under-pinnings of a moral society. Was he more Jewish than the Reform guy who goes to shul to Network with his business acquaintances?

Any thoughts?

I'm sure I'll find better ways to say this as people comment and I'm sure it will develop with time.

Kol Tov,
SC

Shalom S Chaya.

You felt passionately about all that you said. And there are a number of things going on within Jewish communities that you are not happy with or even saddened or quite distressed by.

Perhaps we could help you, bit by bit to "unpack" and consider all that you mentioned in your post. There were a number of interrelated topics there so it might be more accomplishable if people focus on some aspect(s) or the other rather than the whole list. But you never know, I guess. I kindof think that we'll have to chip away at your list bit by bit, just as a persons learning about Judaism progresses bit by bit, whatever their origins.

I'll just say some things that come to mind to me and others can add and/or correct me as they see fit.

First, in Orthodox Jodaism (which is what this site is about), a person is Jewish only if there is an unbroken Jewish line through the mother. By unbroken, I mean that the mother's mother and the mother's mother's mother, and so on, were all Jewish. This means not a born goy, even if not a practising Jew. And that's the rule. What you said in argument on this subject doesn't count. Because the law is the law and that's that. You just can't go around it. And there are good reasons for it. But reasons don't really come into what you are asking. There is simply no point in your trying to buck the system for yourself or somebody else. And the responsibility for our choices is our own. If you assimilate, you choose to.

And yes, Jews can become adopted or lost, even, if you believe in reincarnation, born to goys. If they can't prove they are Jewish, they still have to convert. Is that so awful? There is no test for ownership of a Jewish soul. And the law doesn't allow for it anyway. But, correct me somebody if I am wrong, nothing bad will happen if a person converts when really they were already Jewish. The question is really does the person want to be accepted as a Jew or not. A related and very important question is one of what they want for themselves.

About the process set by a rabbi as one a potential convert needs to follow if he will convert him or her, yes, it can be tough. But there are good reasons for it. For example, some people want to be what they see as Jewish, but it is a fantasy only they don't know it. And so on. Somebody else here can go into all this better than I can, such as why a potential convert can be asked to move to live where Jews live so he or she can mix and learn and attend shul and classes. It's not like in Xianity, basically, where there is something simple (but amazingly awful and ridiculous) people have to say they accept and they are let in. Though actually with a number of different types of more traditional Xianity people who want to convert still have to go to classes, church, etc. I know about this for anumber of reasons, including that I have studied different religions.

The rules about the need to convert won't change because those things you said might happen. It just "tough", brutal though that may seem. But a person should think very carefully before they give up their Jewish heritage for some reason. Believe me, I know. A good strategy I read somewhere was, if a born Jew thinking of converting to another religion, they should first make a point of learning about their own religion, and properly, and with meeting up with other Jews and going to shul, first. Maybe you could visit http://askmoses.com/. You can even speak to a rabbi there. That site helped me.

I like that advice of the rabbi.

Another bit of advice might be to prioritize what is important and make sure you really understand the consequences of what actions you might choose to take. Maybe it is not so impossible, really, to move to where there are Jews? Maybe. And maybe you should because it is important that you do. Is somebody - you - making excuses?

Well, that's it for me right now. I hope it helped a little.

Thank you for replying...

I guess I'm having a problem with my browser or something - it showed me that no one had read or responded to my post so I didn't realize that you had - I apologize.

First let me say - your response was very precious and I see that your first concern was for ME not to assimilate - and for anyone who comes behind me and reads this - I say Yasher Koach because the call to stay the course and not give up was the best thing you could have said were I in that situation... Hmm.

Can I ask you what your basic impression was of my intention for the post?


I wasn't trying to be angry - in fact I didn't feel angry when I wrote it so if I came across that way i'm very sorry.

My intention was that I look around and I know a great many non-Jewish people who really do want a place to go beside the church and it distresses me that they see so much about Judiasm that appeals to them but it's not allowed to encourage anything.. and then at the same time we don't even say "Oh by the way... there's B'nai Noach for non-jews... look into that."

It's difficult to give examples without incurring lashon hara... there are many situations where Orthodox and Chassidic Jews give to the greater community and bless the world around them with their presence - but when the Goy sees it and sees something admirable about Yiddishkeit and H"S they see the Truth of Torah and Mitzvoth - but have no where to go. That breaks my heart I guess. I don't want to see them or even a Jewish person going over to xtianity (chas v'shalom) because it's absolutely the wrong place to go. If anyone thought by reading this that I meant it was ok or even desireable then I had utterly failed the first post and miscommunicated my whole concern.

I'd be the last person ever to say that a person should convert if H"S didn't give them a Jewish Mother by birth. I think it is a mystery of how that works and some communities don't really 'see' conversion but once a person has converted they're welcome... and of course there are a great many controversial concerns with being BT and FFB - but that's not what this post was meant to be about.

I wrote here because I really felt that this was much more yeshivish than Ask Moses and I really did want that sort of conversation on this topic. Does that make sense? I would hope that even here on a board as this that the Rabanim or learned wouldn't feel a need to stand back from such a conversation because I was a female?

Maybe what I need to know is doesn't H"S care for the Goyim too? Doesn't He make provision for them in the Torah by way of BN? Why do we not encourage that rather than let the enthusiasm fall to the ground? I rather wonder if we aren't letting H"S down and I guess that's what I'm concerned about.

It makes me feel a kind of aveirah every time I hear someone say they started going to some church because they hadn't anywhere else to join... It's unspeakable the profound sadness and.. guilt that I feel. The point of Teshuvah is to not continue in one's aveirahs and my concern is that without the support of the community and the rabanim in this matter I'll always feel that I need to make Teshuvah over it in every opportunity. Why? Because I want to encourage them to go somewhere else other than xtianity but there's not any real community of BN anywhere for people to be/go - meanwhile they languish... to convert or not to convert and the lifecycles of their families and themselves are lost and sour... it's so very sad.


S Chaya

I can understand your concern. It can be very tough.

I can understand why some people who feel trapped in a particular location with only non Jewish religion or companionship possible might sample what is offered. It is very hard to be lonely and without support. And each religion or group would have something good to offer. It might come down to what the person could settle for as second best, if they could settle for it. The person would have to face what the options are in light of what he or she really wants and believes and then act accordingly.

As for Bnei Noach, I personally can't see it as like a religion. It doesn't fit my criteria of a religion. They just seem to me to be non-Jewish hangers on to Judaism who don't convert for some reason but don't identify with another religion. Maybe it is satisfying to them somehow. Maybe it is like a hobby. It wouldn't suit me.

If I couldn't be a Jew, and I couldn't cope with being alone, I'd go for a good solid, real religion with a long tradition and entries in books on types of religions. I'd probably go for Buddhism myself. Quite a number of assimilated and assimilating Jews do. If you go in deep enough, you don't have to actually believe in idols and can still believe in God. Not that this is spoken of mostly: that is going in way deep a far beyond what gets served up generally in Buddhist centres or on the net. Buddhism is very decent and sane and helps a person be disciplined and clear thinking. But it really wouldn't satisfy me as I am shatteringly at home in Judaism and long for ongoing connecting with and worship of G-d. I would move thousands of miles to be a Jew if I was had to and was free to do so.

But ask around for other opinions on the subject of Bnei Noach. I know opinions vary. See if they add up to you. This site is probably not the best place to ask about it.

I did a Google search and there seem to be Bnei Noach groups in different places and on the web, plus information on it. Check it out.

People can get angry at how Judaism won't let them in unless they jump through the hoops. This just means, though, that their expectations weren't met. They are like petulant children stamping their feet and demanding " Gimme! Gimme!" But just what do they want? A rubber stamp and a sample bag? Judaism is a people. You only join a people by "being" them. It's no fantasy trip and you can't learn what it is like by admiring what you think it is like from the outside. When I was a teenager I used to dream sometimes of how lovely it would be to be a member of a neighbouring (non Jewish) family who used to get together and sing around their piano. I could see them through their big window. Now I relise I would have hated being one of them as they were fundamentalist xians (a fact that didn't dawn on me back then. Besides, I didn't even know what fundamentalist xianity was about then).You can't become Jewish by long-distance. But don't believe me. Research the subject all over. I bet you get heaps of stuff if you plugged Jewish conversion or something like that into an internet search engine. Then read and learn. Watch out for nonsense though. You have to keep your heas screwed on.

I think a key question a person who wants to be Jewish has to ask themselves is "Why?". And the person had better have good reasons if they want to convert as I haven't met a silly Rabbi yet and don't think I ever will. This presumes that the person meets the other criteria set.

You seem to be blaming Jews for not satisfying the wishes of people who want to be Jewish if these people don't meet the other criteria. But why should they be allowed in just because they want to. Look at Judaism like a club (though it is really much more). A club has the right to set its own rules of membership. It's tough to be turned away. Keep trying and trying if you want it that much. Maybe meet some of the demands set that you hadn't before. Then if you still can't get in after all that effort, maybe you could look on it as not being G-d's will for you. Maybe you're meant for some other purpose. And, if you are still bitterly disappointed, ask why and deal with it. There is nothing to be gained by getting emotional: emotions take over the reason and the person becomes an animal out of control, usually causing some form of devestation and desecration of civilized human rights .

It was unclear in a definite sense why you posted as you were cagy. It could be that you want to convert but can't, as is. Or you may feel sorry for somebody who has got the idea, so far, that they want to be Jewish, but there is a problem in their getting in just like that (snap). If you want us to know for sure, you have to be frank.

I'll leave it for somebody else to reply to you now as I only know so much; have given a lot of what are only my personal views; and you can do more to research this subject yourself, having access to a computer.

By the way, always check things out. This place is not like a normal Yeshiva.

quote:

It makes me feel a kind of aveirah every time I hear someone say they started going to some church because they hadn't anywhere else to join.

B"H

S Chaya, Shalom!

The Goy that you described in your first post on this thread, with all of his superlative attributes, character traits, disposition, demeanor, &c. (Yiddishe Neshama) should, in my opinion, convert to Judaism to make his condition all the more better.

David

B"H

The leanings of the community I've spent the better of my time in has taught me that only the Ruach HaKodesh can reach someone's heart in the manner that I have made an effort to describe. I think it's fairly obvious to some of you that my experience is mostly chassidic, where kavonah and hisbodidus and things of Ruach are commonly discussed in relationship to the world and our surroundings in deeper more mystical ways.

Thank you for your reply David. I think you're probably right. I hope with all my heart that by H"S's help those people find the right Rav and community to make their transitions with.

H"S has provided a way for the Non-Jew to live called B'nai Noach - if anyone doesn't think it's a real place for the non-jew to exist happily perhaps they should talk to H"S about it. There was never a question in my mind about what BN is - only that the community isn't as supportive of this part of the Torah as it could be. I was hoping that those who have been blessed with opportunity to actually attend yeshiva might be able to give some references if any came to mind.

There has to be some place for people and I'm just trying to get us to talk about how we can reach both sides of that community and above all - live as H"S has asked us to in the Torah. Reciting Torah as we walk blesses the land which cries out for it - so even more then does the soul of even a non-jew. I took the Rabbi's encouragement to mean that discussing this topic in different communities could bring awareness and perspective on different issues.

If I share a feeling or a sense of conviction it is mine and I'm being very vulnerable to describe it in hopes that those maybe others who have felt that way might reply. I have been taught that if something good is in my heart and an idea or spark to pick up some of the things in Torah and run with them and make this world a better place - it is from the yetzer tov and those things can only come of the spark from H"S. If it causes anyone aggitation or whatever it isnt my intention - perhaps best not to reply to it.

To me the side-benefit of stearing people toward some kind of appropriate/active Torah observance ultimately - is like Ruth and Naomi - to create a world with fewer idolators and indeed even a place where at some time in the hopeful future we wouldn't be so concerned that xtians and their ilk will be so voracious ... that anti-semitism could be all but irradicated and that even the BN would be crying out for Geulah. B'nai Noach works together in concert with Judaism because H"S made it that way for those who weren't meant to live as Jews. B"H that H"S is so compassionate as to include everyone as that affects all of us and everyone we come across in this life.

I sincerely believe that if H"S created something - whether for the Jew or the Non-Jew then it must be enough to make us all happy in whatever state we find ourselves.

I'm not saying it's better then Judaism i'm just saying it doesn't make sense to me not to have somewhere to send those who have a hunger for Torah who weren't born Jewish. To me it's like a missed opportunity to help the B'nai Noach build their community which would be ultimately an objective of the Torah itself... and anything taught or supported in Torah should be supported by the community.

I've seen some rather brash comments in other threads and people recieved... understanding if not ahavas yisroel. I had hopes that a heartfelt concern could be openly discussed in a serious way without antagonism or negative projections.

Would people then agree with the other post that these kinds of discussions and I am not welcome here for raising them? It was inferred that i was intentionally cagy and vague and wow it's just not at all what I expected from other sections I had read before joining.

If I digressed from detail it's mainly because i saw that people were not openly discussing that much about themselves and I was trying to keep the tone of the posts I'd read. I also saw that longer posts were discouraged and it was my feelings that I was concerend about saying carefully - because in any case incuring chas v'shalom yetzer or lashon hara is not my intention.

My topic title was not meant to spark controversy but to ask the question if there wasn't some better way for the community to handle these issues and I couldn't find another area to put it.

Shalom s Chaya.

I am sorry my reply to you offended you.

I guess I should have chosen my words better. But I have been unwell, am very tired and am very short of time. I was actually trying to be of assistance to you. I guess I may have become too blunt bacause I am so tired.

In describing how I saw something about how you wrote, I was actually responding to a request you gave for personal feedback. By the way, I don't see "vague and cagy" as negatives, just descriptors. I'm sorry you took them badly. I should have said you did not share all the facts with us and wrote in a manner that allowed for various interpretations.

I'm sorry my reply annoyed you in various respects and I hope you find peace and joy.

quote:

It was inferred that i was intentionally cagy and vague

quote:

I also saw that longer posts were discouraged

uh oh ;-(

I didn't know that...

not that try hard as I do I cannot be more concise

I haven't seen that longer posts per se were discouraged. There was a message to not unnecessarily reproduce all the post to which we were replying as including it can make following things a bit confusing sometimes. This site has been pretty understanding re length of posts (I had an eye out for that rule as some sites are tough on it). I find the blue icon that you told me about (many thanks for that ) is really handy sometimes.

quote:

Originally posted by rob:

quote:

I also saw that longer posts were discouraged

uh oh ;-(

I didn't know that...

not that try hard as I do I cannot be more concise

Question: What does --- H"S --- mean in S Chaya's post(s)?

Personally, I wouldn't mind long posts that much if people would make paragraphs. It's very hard to read a long post that just goes on and on and all I see in front of me is this big block of letters.

quote:

Originally posted by Sam-:
Question: What does --- H"S --- mean in S Chaya's post(s)?

It means "Hashem."

I did a Google search and a Jewish religion dictionary search but I couldn't find anything for H"S. Why is that? Who uses this abbreviation?

quote:

Originally posted by David Ben-Abraham:

quote:

Originally posted by Sam-:
Question: What does --- H"S --- mean in S Chaya's post(s)?

It means "Hashem."

I am not certain, but I think I understand feel some of S Chaya's frustration. For an example, I need not go further than my uncle and his family. Being born and raised in Russia in the worst of Stalin's times, he didn't care much in his youth about his being Jewish (yes, I know it is hard to understand for most of those who were raised in a society where we are free to be Frum or Frei, but his father died in the front during WWII defending his country from the Nazi - as so many of our grandfathers did - and his mom had no time to worry about religious upbringing of her son in a country where any religious upbringing was rated as a political crime).

Sorry about such a long foreword. He married a Goyish woman. And - it was his wife who insisted that their children be raised Jewish. It was his wife who got their children to study Hebrew. It was his wife who cleansed the household of all tareif and keeps it kosher. It was his wife who started celebrating Jewish holidays, so that the children would learn their traditions.

Does she not deserve to be Jewish?

quote:

It was his wife

Wow, Alex, what a wonderful story!

How did she come to learn about Jewish holidays and laws for her children?

quote:

Does she not deserve to be Jewish?

Dear Alex,

Wow! What a woman ! That is so touching.

And I for one understand why some Jews assimilate. It has been a subject of interest for me for some time, for personal reasons. There are all sorts of reasons why they do this. I see it as a great tragedy but, as a kind Rabbi once counselled me, only G-d can judge them for this. But, if I meet somebody who wants to assimilate, I feel I must at least try to prevent this.

It isn't that I myself don't sympathise with the human experience of longing to be Jewish. I really do. Of course I do. That isn't the point. But I won't say unfortunately as we just have to accept that that is how it goes. If a person longs to be Jewish and can't or won't go through proving that they are entitled by maternal lineage then they have to convert if they want to be Orthodox. We just can't reason and plead our way around these laws - it isn't possible. It doesn't mean people don't sympathise. There is just no way to change this law. So somebody choosing to convert has the task of working out the hows of it. It's like getting into a university with respect the pasage through the hoops.

quote:

Originally posted by Rosemary:
I did a Google search and a Jewish religion dictionary search but I couldn't find anything for H"S. Why is that? Who uses this abbreviation?

quote:

Originally posted by David Ben-Abraham:

quote:

Originally posted by Sam-:
Question: What does --- H"S --- mean in S Chaya's post(s)?

It means "Hashem."

Yes Rosemary, that's why I asked what it stood for, it was a first that I saw it stood for Hashem. I have seen -- H' --- as a short form.

Shalom Sam.

It looks like the way xians write something about G-d or the J person, meaning G-d's or J's but standing for something I never bothered to figure out.

I realised why you asked . I spotted it too and wondered....

quote:

Originally posted by rob:

quote:

It was his wife

Wow, Alex, what a wonderful story!

It is a true story. They still live in the Urals (he's a coal mine engineer; she's a school teacher).

quote:

How did she come to learn about Jewish holidays and laws for her children?

In part from my parents, who managed to stay more observant during these years (my grandma was the keeper of the tradition and she taught my uncle's wife a lot of what she remembered - by sending letters through friends, etc. Of course she taught us too...) In part from their Jewish friends when being observant stopped being a crime. In part from Sholom-Aleihem, Mendele Moicher-Sforim, and other secular and semi-secular literature. Piece by piece, one step at a time.

quote:

Wow! What a woman ! That is so touching.

Than you Rosemary. If we dig deeper into any of our memories, we will find a lot of stories supporting and contradicting the general premise of the traditional conversion law.

As Sir Bernard Shaw said, "All generalizations are false. Including this one."