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The words in blue below are my replies to this post with my replies after all that was said. I included all the original post as it made serious accusations all through.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: Gila, |
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This statement does not make sense to me. Does this statement assert that one who doesn't believe that G-d's existance can be proven (to some audience) is by definition an athiest? Assuming that is what the statement asserts... No... if the body of experiences through which the proof can be made are through this world and perceived as naturally occuring, then only an indisputable miracle, which is outside that scope, can be seen as proof. Alternatively, there are passionate believers in G-d's existance who know that G-d exists and see absolutely no need to ever even try to prove it. It seems to be held against Avraham Avinu that he asked of G-d "by what sign shall I know" - that this was arguably a lack of faith in Hashem delivering upon His committed word of something good like a reward. If that was in any way wrong, or a lacking of faith, how much more so to demand that there should be a proof! |
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* * * * * * * * * * * * Just for the record: Rav Amnon Yitzhaq wanted to disprove Darwin's theory of evolution. He asked a woman in the crowd to consider the intricacies of his wrist watch. He asked her: "Is it logical that in a million years, the elements would evolve in such a way as to create a wrist watch?" The reply was no. He then asked her: "Is it logical that in a trillion years, the factors would all be right and conducive to form a wrist watch, with all the mechanical gadgetry as complex as that which he was wearing?" Again, the reply was no. Then he asked: "How can it be, then, that they say that man (Homo sapien), whose body is more complex than our wrist watch, evolved into what it is today?!" The entire audience was left dumb-founded, and no man had that which to answer him. Sincerely, David Ben-Abraham |
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And that is the story that has been told.
And, as you would surely know, I did not say or believe what you put at the bottom of your post. Ahuvah said it. As you put it, it is almost like editing to suggest I said it. I know you didn't actually say I said it but you didn't say what I did say. Why choose to do this? I am misunderstood enough already. I am feeling all this is not nice.
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Ok, I will correct what I said a little.
I have shared my faith journey several times here. In it I know I have clearly stated at least a couple of times that, until I found what convinced me objectively about G-d, I was torn between my head and my heart. My heart has always known G-d exists - unvaryingly. But , once I left unreflective childhood and youth and was challenges to produce a proof of G-d's existence, I had in all honesty to say I could not. I took this to fit the definition of an athiest. If it does not (I wish I had time to look up my "Tanya") , then I am mistaken and should have said something different to you. What I know, basically, is that I was mightily relieved when I found objective reasons to believe in G-d. And if such a need for objective reasons is not an issue, why the concern by some people here that The Argument from Design be accepted as valid? And as for Jews being allowed to question and think. I know we are. I must rush off now to take my youngest daughter to school and to go to my vocational bridging course (all day). So I can't stay any longer. Depending on how any replies go, I may then quote from Joseph B Soloveitchik's books.
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B"H
Dear Rosemary,, If I might summarize briefly what we have been discussing here, in this thread, I think you will understand what was the purport of my response to you. 1) You asked, just as someone else had asked, if our faith was rooted in logic. 2) Rav Chaim said "yes" and gave the example of intelligent design. 3) Then you admitted that although you believed in the existence of G-d, you had difficulties with such logic. Using your own words: "...I believe in G-d. But I could never believe proofs like intelligent design... I have always been struck by the wonder, incredible complexity, and stunning beauty of our world and existence. It has always stirred me deeply. But I could never make the connection between it and G-d." (Until here, everything was fine.) 4) Then you made an assertive statement (while still acknowledging G-d): "I believe that what is WRONG with this way of looking for proof of G-d's existence is that it assumes that, because things we design need a designer, that therefore the universe needs a designer. It is looking at G-d anthropomorphically and this is not good." 5) All in the same breath, you seem to be under the strong influence of the philospher, David Hume, whom you either quote or mention in more than 5 of your posts, and whom you admit raised arguments that seemed to justify your own "inadequate belief," saying that there was no logic in the theory of "intelligent design," at least from the standpoint of there being one creator. (Of course, I think you can appreciate, Rosemary, that such a statement made by the respectable Hume is heresy unto us. Perhaps, though, what he was saying was only rhetoric. Yet, from our perspective and experience as Jews, there cannot be but one G-d. The Sages teach us that a man is an Epicurean -Heb. "afikoros"- if he believes that G-d exists, but that He takes no care or concern for the affairs of man, or that He is insensible to the minutest details which affect man. How much more then if one would be led into thinking that there were two creators instead of one.) 6) You claim, moreover, that mere logic serves as "no proof" when it comes to verifying G-d's existence. (Which statement of yours makes me think that what you are saying is "seeing with our mortal eyes is proof." If I am wrong, please correct me.) On the contrary, Abraham came to such a realisation of G-d by mere logic, without actually seeing. Is this then proof? One great Rabbi has said that proof about the existence of a certain thing can also be deduced, through logic, even without seeing the thing. He brings down the example of human intellect, or of man's spirit. No man has yet seen human intellect with the naked eye, neither has anyone seen the spirit of man. Yet, we know that both exist by virtue of our seeing the actions procured by one's intellect, or the movement of the body because of one's spirit. It is the same with G-d. And why is it that we can't gaze upon Him? If the sun (which is only a meager creation of His) we can hardly look upon without blinding our eyes, how much more then would it be hard for our mortal frames to look directly upon Him who created the sun with the spirit of His breath?! The Rabbis teach us that it is not so much a matter of our being blinded as it is of our spirits being drawn suddenly away from our bodies, at their great desire to return to their source! So, it was out of love that G-d hid and hides His face from us. As for anthropomorphism, it is indeed the act of applying unto G-d that which is common with men at large. While it is true that we can never fully comprehend G-d in all of His greatness, it is untrue that we cannot apply unto Him the very nature with which we have been endowed by Him. That is, deductive logic and reason. Since specifically in this, we were made like unto G-d, then (so-to-speak) G-d is like unto us in this area of logic. Now simple logic teaches us that the order and complexities of our earth and universe could not have been, neither have come into existence, without the foreplan of a Master Designer (Builder) and Architect. This is all that I have to say. Sincerely, David Ben-Abraham This message has been edited. Last edited by: Gila, |
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GY Teacher |
I already wrote what i felt appropriate and sent it through e-mail in to the one that post my posts, which would appear tomorrow morning. (This helps me from having to get on the internet which doesn't work that well for me)
But I have to reiterate here: I believe Rosemary is a Kosher Jew and should be considered as such. Whether she believes in intelligent design or not, but believes in Hashem for other reasons. She still a Shomer Mitzvos and could be as frum as I am. ____________ http://limudtorah.jewishweb.org Please help the Global Yeshiva to continue spreading high quality Torah by sponsoring a Shiur in the "Understanding Mishna Brurah" forum. All sponsorships are tax deductible. |
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Shalom David: I am not quite following this analogy... Suppose a human inventor creates a very bright light which would blind me if I looked directly at, can I possibly expect that I am not able to gaze upon the human inventor? Would it matter if he used welding wire which glowed by the electricity of a hand-cranked generator? |
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B"H
Rob, The analogy which you bring down about man creating an intense light beam is different than the analogy of G-d creating an intense light beam, i.e. the sun. Man creates light from things that presently exist in nature, even though that light might blind him. Yet, that light did not emanate from man's essence, but rather from what G-d brought into existence. The sun, on the other hand, as well as all of the stars (where no human creation, if it were only to approach nigh unto, could endure their intense heat without disintegrating), have all emanated from the speech of G-d's mouth - and nothing more. The substance, however similar, is different. David |
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How does G-d's speech, and what G-d Creates by his speech, signify anything that we can deduce about seeing G-d Himself, as if such a thing were possible? That G-d create things in the world He created which we are not able to see, or be close to, yet which G-d can of course endure doing anything with, doesn't teach us anything about our ability to endure anything about G-d! |
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B"H
Rob, I wish to reiterate what was formerly stated in this thread, viz.,
This thing is intimated in the Torah itself: "For no man shall see Me and live." (Shemos 33:20) The question was often asked, "Why?" I have heard it stated on more than one occasion by the Rabbis that it is like a man who wanted to behold the sun, etc. But this was said only to suggest an awesome and inviolable nature, as it were, about G-d. The real reason was rather because of this: If we were to see Him, our spirits would fly off from our bodies in a surge to return to their Source. This, and no more. David |
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GY Teacher |
For some reason or another, we're both not understanding each other. You write that you don't understand my points. I still can't figure out your disproof to intelligent design. Perhaps we're not speaking the same language. Maybe it might be a good idea to stop the conversation. We'll probably won't convince each other, or even understand each other. I chas V'Sholom didn't try to make any inferences about you, and your right, I don't know anyone well on this forum.
____________ http://limudtorah.jewishweb.org Please help the Global Yeshiva to continue spreading high quality Torah by sponsoring a Shiur in the "Understanding Mishna Brurah" forum. All sponsorships are tax deductible. |
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Dear David,
I no longer have the heart to debate. I can't even put my mind to itas I feel so miserable about how things have gone. I know you must have meant well, but the damage is done. I am seriously thinking of leaving GY.
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Thank you Rav for your kindness and for caring to post this.
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Yes, I agree: I don't know why it is but we are not seeming to talk the same language. I don't understand why we couldn't talk it through but obviously you aren't the only one to think I am wrong. And worse was said of me. Maybe I'm not making any sense. I hardly opened my mouth at class today thinking that nonsense would come out. And yes, I don't want to debate this anymore. I couldn't anyway. And Yes, you didn't strike me as making inferences about me. Thank you very much for that. I was only bothered by the fact that I seemed to be talking rubbish to you. Thank you for not judging me as a result.
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B"H
My dear Rosemary, I think you would be making a great mistake to leave the Global Yeshiva. Let me assure you that I meant NO offence to you, personally, but only wanted to show you the fallacies of following in line with philosopher David Hume. As Rav Chaim said, you are probably just as frum as anyone else on this forum. We all have our areas of doubt (I'm no different), and I'd always be grateful to someone else if they could help boost my own faith or even show me where I have faltered. Believe me, Rosemary, when I tell you that I have always admired your quest for knowledge (that is, ever since I've followed your postings). We do not always have to agree. On the other hand, your continued contributions to this forum are vital and important to us all. I would seriously ask you to reconsider your decision to quit this group. Give it another try. I'll try my best to me more considerate in my choice of words - for it has NEVER been my intention to insult or offend anyone. Yours, David Ben-Abraham |
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Thank you David. I almost didn't log on to Gy today but I'm glad I did.
I realise that you meant well and I never thought of your actions as coming from anything bad, so no problem there. What happened just rocked and upset me personally. To be told, as it seemed to me I was being told, that I did not believe as a Jew should, was pretty horrific. And this despite that I am sure my Jewish belifs are fine. I have studied Judaism for some years now and what I found was the joy of finding that for some strange reason, despite my assimilated background (in many, but not all ways), I had found where my basic religious beliefs were identical. I said "joy" because I found it painful to not fit in my years of religious exploration outside Judaism, looking for my "home". I don't like to be an outsider but I won't pretend to get acceptance - I detest that sort of dishonesty. So I had tough times, probably especially, as you have realised, I do have a quest for knowledge (and to become as I should be). If I could have been less obvious in my difference in some ways, I wouldn't have had a problem as people like me at a general level. I never had a problem with the leaders (priests, lamas, gurus, etc) as for some reason there was a mutual loving bond, respect and tolerance if not doctrinal agreement. But I have had some vile times with the sort of people who have a little religion but not much understanding or knowledge. I guess that is a perennial problem for people like me, even in their own religion. I know it means I am not advanced enough, but it does hurt me, sometimes dreadfully, to be treated harshly,dismissively, and maybe viciously. But , as I said previously, I am stubborn, like in the story of the insect that got crushed up and thrown down but struggled and struggled till it managed to get up and fly to try again, still an insect. Anyway, my searching without finding a home went on for so many decades that I finally practically resigned myself to not finding one. A Catholic nun suggested to me over coffee less than 10 years ago when I shared my search with her over morning tea at a workshop, "You may never find what you are looking for" (or words that I have forgotten to that effect). This was something I tried not to hear but hear it I did and I had to admit to myself eventually that she was probably right, going by my track record of rejecting one religion after another. I seriously wondered if I had some sort of personal problem. And I tried to live with a painful ache of longing in my heart, that was a constant part of me, for what I couldn't find. I merely recognised Judaism, when Hashem finally made me stumble over it, as where I belonged. And the more I have explored this, the more it matched. I think you know enough of me now to realise that, if it hadn't fitted, I would have kept moving. My Jewish background didn't factor in my recognition as I had put that on the same level as having forebears who came from Russia and Germany. Which makes sense, given the assimilation. But, despite my solid conviction that I belong in Judaism in all the ways, what you said in your 3rd last post (about Jewish faith beliefs, etc) was terribly upsetting to me. I guess it comes down to the interpersonal aspects and having you do that so publicly. The second thing that really bothered me was that nobody I was corresponding with on GY could seem to understand what I was saying. I don't mean the disagreement about The Argument from Design per se. People have always argued about that and still do. I mean when I tried to explain about how that design argument is not essential to good Jewish faith (it is not, you know, as I am so glad Rav Chaim finally said). My lack of acceptance of that argument got turned against me personally and that is when I cracked, though I tried not to and to be circumspect. The last straw, which you may not know about, is that somebody from GY, whom I like and respect (not a rabbi), PMd me (private message) and basically told me off and finished off by saying it would be a shame if I cut back my involvement in GY (though I had said nothing about leaving yet - all I had done was to reply to your 3rd last, faith email). Basically he was defending you as well as dressing me doen for my bad behaviour towards you and to do with something else. This was my third source of personal doubt and I guess it was the trigger though it didn't stand alone. I still don't know if I can continue on GY. I appreciate your kind words tremendously though. But at the moment they are like soothing ointment on a festering wound. Frankly, I currently no longer have the confidence to speak up, and I guess I am wondering if I really should be here. I don't focus on things the way you guys typically do, to do with more abstract things anyway - our way of doing higher thinking varies. Maybe it is that I am more concrete and into the personal and yet seemingly more into mystical experience and prayer. But I don't have a good handle on the difference and it can be hard to tell. But I don't want to be misunderstood or in the way. Anyway, I'll see how it goes. Maybe I'll settle down. I still feel very upset at the moment. Thanks again for being so nice.
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B"H
Rosemary, I sent you a private message on the GY. Look at it. David |
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Yes I got it David. Many thanks. Hopefully you got my answer to it.
I couldn't read or reply to it straight away as I have only so much time in the morning to go on the internet. That's when I find the emails and postings from you people who have been awake while I'm snoozing away in eastern Australia - that is most of you. As it is, I shouldn't go on at all then as I have so little spare time then (none really) but it makes the time lag even longer if I don't get at least some answers gone. I have actually been wondering if I should skip going on then as it means I am really pushing things time wise. |
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Shalom Rav.
I didn't have much time to reply properly before and still don't have much time but I'll add a bit before I go to bed (so late). I didn't mind when you said we might not be speaking the same language as that sounds like a useful kind of metaphor to let me know we were looking at things differently in this respect. I dare not go into philosophy too deeply again (right now : maybe later  ), but through my studies there I have found the concept of "diffent language" can help make the existence of disagreements clearer without leading to the apportioning of blame or name calling, as Thomas Kuhn in "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions" pointed out.Thomas Kuhn also talked of the need to translate between the "languages". I'll sleep on that one and add it to my processing of a rereading of "The Lonely Man of Faith" by Rabbi Joseph B. Soloveitchik. I wasn't feeling well today and that gave me the chance to take things quietly and read. I saw things in Rabbi Soloveitchik's book that made a different sort of impact on me this time round. I don't know if I should expand here later on what Rabbi Soloveitchik said. He was saying what I was trying to say but in a different way. I don't know if anybody would be interested in hearing how this eminent rabbi discussed matters. I was glad I had a reread. I now feel less disheartened. And I do want to add that I don't think everybody has to think alike. Nobody can claim to know the Truth as G-d does and things can be so confusing; we can have little enough time to read and think about so much; and sometimes diversity seems to be how it goes. Myself, I feel the need to keep working on understanding certain things so I keep "chipping away" at it. But the progress I make is only relative to my starting and previous position(s) positions Of course. I have been glad I have made some progress as I am wiser than I was. But that doesn't mean I know better than anybody else. And I can always improve more. Thanks again for your support. It really helped me keep my head up.
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