B"H
Rob,
In the URL link that you provided, it sounds to me that Dr. Gerald Shroeder is trying to match scientific findings with the episode in the book of Genesis, and make the two harmonious. We cannot always do that.

Haven't you overlooked this statement made by Dr. Shroeder? viz., "Let me clarify right at the start. The world may be only some 6000 years old. G-d could have put the fossils in the ground and juggled the light arriving from distant galaxies to make the world appear to be billions of years old. There is absolutely no way to disprove this claim. G-d being infinite could have made the world that way."

Even so, he seems to be assuming that the fossils are as old as the carbon-dating makes them out to be. Let me remind you that they tested a snail with carbon-dating and it came out several millions of years old! Moreover, physicist Stephen Hawking has already disproved the accuracy of carbon-dating, as we have premised in an earlier post on this thread.

Anyone looking at Dr. Shroeder's final remarks on that web-page will see just how far he has deviated from the plain sense and meaning of our Torah.

Sincerely,
David

B"H

Additional remark:

Dr. Shroeder also seems to be assuming that since light travels at a certain speed, it would have taken many billions of years for that light generated by the stars to reach our planet from those far-off, outlying galaxies discovered by the Hubble telescope. This thought can easily be rectified by admitting that G-d, just as he created a tangible thing from a mere intangible substance, so too did he create the light so that it would exist just as it would have normally existed had it travelled in a straight course for those many years, having presently reached the earth on the fourth day of creation.

David

quote:

Originally posted by Sam-:

quote:

Originally posted by AharonBenjamin:

quote:

Originally posted by David Ben-Abraham:
B"H

Rob,

I almost forgot to add the source for our teaching of anno mundi 5,766. While it is the Tanna of "Seder Olam," see Rabbeinu Hananel's Commentary on the Talmud (Avodah Zarah 9b - 10a). This is the opinion commonly held by most Rabbis.

David

The Lubavitcher Rebbe also writes that the world is literally 5766 years old, but I did not realize that this is also the mainstream Orthodox view.

AharonBenjamin, what do you mean by "mainstream"?

Hi Sam, I was referring to the expression David used "most Rabbis".

B"H

Rosemary,

I left you a Personal Message in the "My Space" column. I noticed that you have not yet opened it.

David

B"H
Rob,

I think it should be pointed out that the article, "The Age of Our Universe" by Dr. Gerald Schroeder, and carried on-line by Aish. Com., had this message appended to it:

"Thank you for visiting Aish.com. This article is currently under review, in consultation with today's leading Torah scholars."

It would seem that his opinions were a little bit too "left-field."

David

Shalom David:

I am not sure if its too left-field, but surely not something on which to rely to paskin halacha.

Rav Aryeh Kaplan zt"l's presentation and also an audio tape from Aish, I think do beautiful jobs of harmonizing with what we know to be true from Chazal, and explaining more about why there is a principle how we are supposed to think about the first days of Creation.

Shalom David.

It is now Saturday night here. We are way ahead of where you are. The time difference explains a lot. I try to catch up on my mail as soon as I can.

On Friday I just couldn't fit in the time in the morning to reply. Then I was dealing with my course stuff all day. And then the time just went with things I had to do before Shabbat so I couldn't get on the computer till now.

I don't know if this explains the PM.Is that different to what gets sent to our email inbox? If so, how do we know we have a PM? I did stumble over one once but will have to go searching to see how I found it. I've been thinking it didn't also go to my email box but I had wondered if I accidentally deleted it there. When you wrote to me privately before it went in my email inbox. I'm confused but no doubt it will all become clearer in time.

I'm sorry for any delays.

quote:

Originally posted by David Ben-Abraham:
B"H

Rosemary,

I left you a Personal Message in the "My Space" column. I noticed that you have not yet opened it.

David

I found it via going to " My space" ! Hooray ! I seldom go there normally. Are we supposed to check there often?

I am puzzeled though. When I clicked on your message there was a thread there and it had your first private message that came to my email inbox, plus my reply to it. But I don't think your latest private message is in my email inbox. The mystery deepens.

About your message, I answered one thing - a very serious thing you said about what I think. But that is all I am wanting to say. I would like you to post that message here on this thread as it is actually a continuation of the debating that was going on before, with me included. This debate is a public thing and belongs on GY. Also I am very uncomfortable about debating with you in "secrecy". And I feel threatened if I am dealing privately with emails that are telling me things about me, as you did before higher up in this topic here and which was what led to all the trouble. If you must say such things to me, fine, but please do it here in the topic. I need other people to help me deal with this.

I am sorry if I have said the wrong thing anywhere in this post. I am simply trying to get this difficult matter resolved and the matter is bothering me so much I am shaking. If you really want me to keep debating, I will try with everyone here.

quote:

Originally posted by David Ben-Abraham:
B"H

Rosemary,

I left you a Personal Message in the "My Space" column. I noticed that you have not yet opened it.

David

Uh, oh! I found it, your personal message in my email inbox! It just looked like a normal GY post. I thought it was to a topic, as I have set up notificatins to topics I am interested in. I had a backlog because of shabbat. Well, that explains that. Now we know: Messages to "My space" also go to personal email accounts.

quote:

I am puzzeled though. When I clicked on your message there was a thread there and it had your first private message that came to my email inbox, plus my reply to it. But I don't think your latest private message is in my email inbox. The mystery deepens.

I tried to combine the reply I want to put here with my previous post to stop having too many posts of mine in a row, but I must have been tring after the 2 hrs for editing was up and lost my whole post. So I'll start again.

As I said not long ago, I am willing to keep discussing the original topic in this forum. Later I got to thinking about all the misunderstandings that were said about me. And now I'm posting this about them. This constitutes my thoughts on the matter and includes some clear statements I would like to make about my beliefs (because incorrect things have been said about me in this forum). While I am willing to keep discussing the original topic, I do not want to again have to face the sort of incorrect and personal comments I faced before and which led to strife for a while. I did try to explain before, but it didn't altogether get heard or absorbed for some reason. So I just want to give a few summary points so it has been tabled for future reference if necessary. I don't want to have to go over all this again. And I now realise I shouldn't have to (which I will explain more at the end of this post):


1. I would prefer it if people would follow the Terms of Service of Global Yeshiva(see http://globalyeshiva.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/893606335/m/520107404) ,including keeping to the topic and not making personal comments about me and what they imagine my beliefs are.

2. I would like to state, again, for the sake of this exercise, that I have a very strong faith indeed in G-d and regarding that G-d is the creator of everything, including what we cannot comprehend.

If somebody would like to discuss the adequate bases of Jewish faith, I suggest they start a forum topic of their own on this. I am not prepared to be made the focus of this. All my Jewish credentials are impeccable and I know it. I don't have to justify it here and it is off the topic. A person steeped in fundamentalist xianity might not understand what I am saying, but might use Xian phraseology to tell me I have "little" faith. Personally, I am not interested in the Xian mindset and really can't figue it out.

3. I believe G-d is both immanent and transcendent. Thus I would not make a statement that says G-d is in heaven, as if G-d is not with us also. An xian who believes G-d lives in heaven would not understand this.

4. If somebody does not like how I argue and would like to make an issue of it, I suggest they make specific what they think adequate bases for argument are, suitably referenced and with examples as befits quality writing, and argue cogently for how I have violated thse principles. I would be most interested in learning from such an exercise as long as the discussion is kept to the topic's discussion. I am dedicated to "lifting my game". But I set high standards if peple want to talk this talk and walk this walk. So please do not simply make unfounded statements about me or think that your feelings or opinions are sufficient motivation for me to change. Apart from anything else, How do I know who you really are? You could be a Xian, Muslim, etc for all I know, apart from some people it is obvious are not.

5. Whoever says I am led by the nose by philosophers, or anybody else, I quote does not know me very well and is making a huge, unwarranted assumption and which I find to be extraordinarily presumptious. If it wasn't off topic, I would ask such people to prove it.


Ok, I've been tough. And it is obvious to anybody who knows Global Yeshiva members well at all that my comments here would not apply to most of them. I've just been so distressed by certain things that were said in this forum that I have decided I should make a stand and state what I want, etc. My aim is to try to ensure that this forum is safe and generally as it should be for me. I have learned from having to do this. What I have learned most of all, especially after reading the "The Rules of the Game/The Terms of Service" of this site, is that we are here to discuss topics. We should not have to defend ourselves personally from attack. If we feel we are being put in such a position, something is not as it should be. Global Yeshiva is a wonderful site and does not believe in the practice of anything but Torah based Judaism.

Now let's talk.

B"H
Rosemary,
I'm surprised at your response to my Private Message. Since I criticized you there, I did not want this to become public. For while, on one hand, you seem to admit that you have difficulty with believing that G-d created the earth (or, at least, "connecting" G-d with the creation), you tend to support your position by taking wrong examples from others.

Since you've asked me to repeat what I wrote to you in my Private Message, with your permission I shall do so. There, I wrote:

"Please know that my intentions in posting were only to help you in your own beliefs. If I've failed, I've failed. You asked if our faith is logical, etc. You admit that you are מקטני אמנה (of little faith) when it comes to believing that G-d created the earth, etc., although you fully believe that there is a G-d in heaven. What disturbs me, though, is your way of arguing in order to justify those philosophers who leave you in you present condition of disbelief. It's sort of like defeating the purpose. Do you sincerely want to believe (whole-heartedly) that G-d created the heavens and the earth?"

Rosemary, I hope you are satisfied. It seems to me that you have a problem with pure Hebrew words and expressions that have been translated into proper English. It seems, perhaps, that for you words carry other connotations. Would you prefer that I write you directly in Hebrew so as to avoid this conflict?

Sincerely,
David

quote:

You admit that you are מקטני אמנה (of little faith) when it comes to believing that G-d created the earth, etc.,

Reb David:

What do you see in Rosemary's public posts which indicate this particular lacking in faith?

Shalom, David.

I am sorry you feel like this.

You have made far more public than I ever did. Now you have admitted authorship to the ideas I was addressing. Initially I did suggest you write to me at GY. Then I had second thoughts about this. I thought I could save you from having to do so. I assumed you then would not do so. Seems I should have covered this base. But it is your choice.

But I certainly don't want to have private discussions with you where you are free to criticize or insult me or say untrue things about me without nobody knowing. We are not on GY to criticize each other anyway.

I am not going to defend myself. This is a discussion of ideas forum. Could we get on with a clean discussion please ?

quote:

Originally posted by David Ben-Abraham:
B"H
Rosemary,
I'm surprised at your response to my Private Message. Since I criticized you there, I did not want this to become public. For while, on one hand, you seem to admit that you have difficulty with believing that G-d created the earth (or, at least, "connecting" G-d with the creation), you tend to support your position by taking wrong examples from others.

Since you've asked me to repeat what I wrote to you in my Private Message, with your permission I shall do so. There, I wrote:

"Please know that my intentions in posting were only to help you in your own beliefs. If I've failed, I've failed. You asked if our faith is logical, etc. You admit that you are מקטני אמנה (of little faith) when it comes to believing that G-d created the earth, etc., although you fully believe that there is a G-d in heaven. What disturbs me, though, is your way of arguing in order to justify those philosophers who leave you in you present condition of disbelief. It's sort of like defeating the purpose. Do you sincerely want to believe (whole-heartedly) that G-d created the heavens and the earth?"

Rosemary, I hope you are satisfied. It seems to me that you have a problem with pure Hebrew words and expressions that have been translated into proper English. It seems, perhaps, that for you words carry other connotations. Would you prefer that I write you directly in Hebrew so as to avoid this conflict?

Sincerely,
David

quote:

This is a discussion of ideas forum.

For anybody who might feel like scanning some rules for discussion that I gleaned via a Google search, please see the following links:


http://homepages.dordt.edu/lantinga/gender_rules.htm





<A HREF="http://gsi.berkeley.edu/textonly/resources/discussion/read_crti.html%5B/URL%5D" TARGET=_blank>http://gsi.berkeley.edu/textonly/resources/discussion/read_crti.html</A>


http://cte.udel.edu/TAbook/ground.html


http://discussion.autodesk.com/ground.jspa



<A HREF="http://www.gantthead.com/discussions/discussionRules.cfm%5B/URL%5D" TARGET=_blank>http://www.gantthead.com/discussions/discussionRules.cfm</A>
http://gsi.berkeley.edu/textonly/resources/discussion/suggested.html


http://p083.ezboard.com/fbalkansfrm80.showMessage?topicID=17.topic


http://www.hrea.org/pubs/rules-discussion.html


I am posting these in an earnest and sincere attempt to facilitate the productive and civil discussion of ideas and which is Jewishly ethically correct.

Perhaps somebody would care to offer links or reference to further relevant information about how we might be guided in how we discuss topics and address each other at the same time. At the moment there is a need to discover and share Rabbinic commentary on or relevant to the subject and I would love to have some drawn to my attention. This is also relevant to a couple of other topics currently active at Global Yeshiva (when to speak, and on abuse, etc). So far I have found some useful links:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/sensitivity.html

http://www.askmoses.com/qa_detail.html?h=572&o=2484

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbi_Hillel


And, but off this topic :

http://www.womanabuseprevention.com/html/jewish_community.html

http://www.uscj.org/WHAT_OUR_SYNAGOGUES_6223.html

http://www.ivff.org/ivff/speakout/2000-cohensermon.htm


It is so important that we Jews are able to discuss matters peacefully. There is enough torment, trouble and ill feeling in the world already: we surely don't have to make the problem worse?

I didn't realize this thread was going on, nor that it was getting this heated. I'm in the middle of a frenzy trying to complete a book that my publishers have been expecting for the past couple of months. This book should be out in the Fall sometime. It is about my theory on preventive medicine and in it I devote an entire chapter to cosmology and creation.

I have concluded that if we understand Einstein's relativity well, the idea that the universe has been around for 6,000 is not incompatible with Rav David Schroeder's 15+ billion years nor Rav Aryeh Kaplan's 15+ billion years.

Imagine going to look for a house for purchase. You drive into a new housing development, the lawns are manicured, trees are 20 ft tall and hedges are full height. The developer is driving you around trying to sell you a house. You ask, "How long has this development been here?" "Six months," he says. But by the looks of the vegetation it could be 5 years, how did he do it? Well, he procured sod that had been growing on the sod farm for the past 5 years and hedges and trees that are 5 years old and transplanted them. So this housing development has accumulated 6 months of "earned" time but it has been given 5 years of "given" time. The problem is that we cannot distinguish between earned time and given time. So when the developer says the development has only been there 6 months, we tell him all the scientific evidence indicates it has been there for 5 years.

The universe has earned 6,000 years but it has been given 15+ billion years. Within HaShem's paradigm, time is a commodity. The Kadosh Baruch Hu can create 15+ billion units of time instantly, just as much as He can create one unit of time instantly. We look at time as being linear. We say if the universe represents 15+ billion years, the universe must have earned the 15+ billion years, but that's not the case. We know Adam and Chava were created as adults. Yes, they did not earn their youth, it was given to them. This is no different. However, the process itself wasn't quite so simple because there were 3 different time frames involved and in the first one time was actually being created, "on the fly".

Shalom

Quote "I never did get a buzz out of arguing"

It's an acquired taste

Seriously speaking, this is the process of learning in Yeshiva. Someone comes up with questions, other with answers, other with questions of the answer and so on. It really gives opportunity for a lot of creative thinking and problem solving. The best is when the participants have mutual respect for each other, so nothing's personal. Though there are those that get very passionate on their positions and scream at each other 'till the letters of the dedications of the Beis Medrish start falling off . But it's not personal.

Quote "Maybe an underlying cause of the difficulties we have been having in our discussions regarding the topic has been to do with the word "proof". I know I have been having conceptual problems with this word myself, including before this topic. I still do not know how to resolve this one sufficient to satisfy me."

This is the intention of my question in an earlier post, and I quote

"So the question is, according to Hume, what is the burden of proof?"

I would like to point out, that in the 2nd Perek of Chagigah, introduces us to the concept of the mystical work of "Maaseh Breishis" which is only exceeded as the most Toras Hanister by "Maaseh Markava." It would seem from the Gemarah that this was revealed to not that many people, and I wonder if anyone knows it in it's fullness today. So like any Torah Shebiksav, to understand the true meaning of the verses, you need to come onto Torah Shebaal Peh, which in this Inyin, little is known to the average man. So how I see it, it's a closed book to most people. I don't think that it's necessary to defend the Bible account or discount anything on our understanding of the verses, because they're extremely limited.

There is a time I used to believe there is other life out in the universe, but I'm more convinced than ever that there probably isn't. The universe seems to have been created for the sole benefit of earthlings. It's part of the "vegetation" and "acoutrements" that make the earth and it's environments look "lived in" but more importantly, for us to learn the greatness of the Kadosh Baruch Hu.

B"H
Moshe wrote:
"We know Adam and Chava were created as adults. Yes, they did not earn their youth, it was given to them."

Well said, Moshe! This falls along those same lines of what we have been saying here, how that G-d created a tangible thing from a mere intangible substance. Light didn't travel 15 billion years for it to reach the earth. Rather, light was already there, in its present form, on the fourth day of creation when G-d made the sun, moon and stars.

As for Rob's question, "What do you see in Rosemary's public posts which indicate this particular lacking in faith?"

Rosemary had written in an earlier post on this thread: "I have always been struck by the wonder, incredible complexity, and stunning beauty and of our world and existence. It has always stirred me deeply. But I could never make the connection between it and G-d."

I agree with what was said here, that lines of communications should be left open, and "mutual respect" should be our guiding factor when addressing each other.

David

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Gila,