Or to put it more plainly, Mark,

If we evolved from monkeys, then why do we still have monkeys??

quote:

Originally posted by Mark G:
I always wondered (about macro-evolution)why there wasnt a generation of chimps behind humans starting to evolve. Once we 'evolved' the generations of chimps seem to have stopped evolving ??.Surely if evolution was an ongoing process we should be meeting a new generation of evolved humans

Shalom Mark,

In fact, according to the fossil record, there were many steps and increments between us and Chimps. Those steps are the "cave-men"--the neanderthals, the cro-magnums, etc. Supposedly, as some hypotheses have it, those species were less suitable for survival. They might have even been in direct competition with us for resources--resulting in our species having a hand in their extinction. Either way, the chimps are, according to biologists, the most genetically related, LIVING relative of the Homo sapiens. But there are many examples of closer relatives to our species--these extinct links, if you will--in the fossil record.

Shalom Yocheved,

Your farm sounds like a lot of fun. What types of names do you give the geese?

The presences of simians doesn't discredit the theory of evolution anymore than the presence of lions discredits their relatedness to house-cats.

A lot of people think evolution is a step process, where one species reaches a particular "status" in the evolutionary hiearchy, begets another species, and then stops evolving. That is not true. All species evolved dynamically, in parallel processes. So we did not, as the misnomer has it, "evolve from chimps". Chimps evolved concurrently, or at least in separate evolutionary events, from the same primate ancestors from which humans evolved. Antievolutionary rhetoric seems to force the idea that evolutionary theory posits "monkeys are our ancestors". This confounds and distorts the arguement, and might even be responsible for some of the negative reactions it receives. We descended from extinct, non-human primates (species we found in the fossil record), as did chimps. In a strictly metaphoric sense, chimps are our cousins, not our great, great, great grandparents (HaShem forbid).

Re: Chaim 5739

Yes I understand the 'evolutionary chain' of cave-men,neanderthals, cro-magnums. But the interesting question is why did it stop ? Surely if evolution is as it names insists evolutionary, it implies a continual process not a process that suddenly stops, therefore, surely, we should have living proof of these processes in the form of newly developed cave men, neaderthals etc and not only fossilised records.

Another thing which I fail to understand about evolution is: I have a basic understanding of physics BUT I do remember the law that states- everything tends towards chaos (atrophy), evolution is in direct and absolute contrast to this law of Thermodynamics.

quote:

nderstand about evolution is: I have a basic understanding of physics BUT I do remember the law that states- everything tends towards chaos (atrophy), evolution is in direct and absolute contrast to this law of Thermodynamics.

Shalom Mark,

There is nothing in evolutionary theory that states that every species in the taxonomical record has to be living. Those species are not exstant precisely because they were unfit for survival, and thus incapable of passing on their genes. That's the crux of evolutionary theory. The only victory in evolution is having DNA that is fit for the environment and able to be passed on to future generations. You're still looking at evolutionary as a strict hierarchy, not a dynamic process. Certain neanderthals, for whatever reason, became smarter, more adaptive to their changing environment, and started changing. The ones that didn't change--and remember, change is a modification over many generations--passed on DNA that became outdated, unfit for the environment. They fell to the evolutionary wayside, and stayed neanderthal, better suited to an older environment.

There are sources (even over a thousand years ago) who have said that Adam HaRishon was NOT the first man per se, but the first one with a soul.

The chaos before Bereishit describes quite well the dinosaur age and neandrathal man. Besides, recent archeology confirms that civilization really only began to progress in leaps and bounds about 6,000 years ago and from one limited location (about that of where Bereishit is supposed to have taken place).

Check out the following links:

http://www.aish.com/torahportion/mayanot/Will_the_Real_..._Please_Stand_Up.asp

Here is another article on the subject "The First Man" http://www.aish.com/torahportion/moray/The_First_Man.asp

Incidentally, I believe in evolution (but not random) by the will of the Creator....

One base Min has not changed into another base min. There was and may still be interbreeding perhaps with improved design and ability to procreate pre flood. The swan may be a goose and another of the same base min as goosebird.
The Raven was a base min. not combiation of 2 base min birds or it would have not been on the ark.
Concensous among scientists means nothing when they all use the same faulty assumptions (such as assuming its an old universe) in calculations.
That is why their findings so often contradict the facts and each others findings.
only Torah 5767 timeline to date has fully reconciled these discrepencies in scientific findings on age of stars vs universe, age of rocks, dino fossils, etc.
go to this link http://pearlmancta.com/TheComplexCreation...htm
for live links, proof and sources.

Appreciating Values:

A CTA Evaluates Torah and Science in the 'New Light'

"The Recent Complex Creation"



By Roger M. Pearlman CTA



Contents:

Part I

Introduction

1) One Creator

Part II

2) Six Day Creation Ex Nihilism

3) Torah is the Authentic Revelation of Divine Will

4) The Commandments

5) Free Will, Reward and Punishment

6) Human Life is Sacred

7) The Importance of Jewish Israel

Part III

8) Darwinism: A Bursting Bubble

9) A Recent Creation 3760 BCE = Year 1

9B) A Complex Creation: A Single Continent

10) A Diminished Atmosphere: Flood, Mountain and Radiation Build 1656

11) Ice Age then Continental Separation by Babel Dispersion 1996

12) Man and Dinosaur Coexisted

13) Dating Ancient Egypt: Exodus and Revelation at Sinai 2448

14) Unified Theory of Original Light

15) Conclusion: Restoring Jewish Israel Path to Peace and Prosperity

Part IV

16) Biography,

17) Glossary, Source, Reading List





Introduction:

The length of a day was set on day one! Talmud Chagiga 12A quotes R' Yehudah quoting Rav. Creation was 5767 current years ago in six 24-hour days. Sabbath observance testifies to this..27 All factual evidence can be reconciled with this simple Torah understanding, premised on a complex creation and a change in atmosphere.

Old universe theory is based on faulty logic and premises. It is inconsistent with science and Torah. Once a scientist denies the Creator he is forced to overstate the age of the universe. A life-supporting atmosphere for millions of years would be perhaps a bigger miracle. Where to draw the line between metaphor and fact in Torah text without guidance from Chazal is reckless. Like a prudent investor who finally capitulated to a brokers hype and bought the NASDAQ at 5,000 is a person of faith now putting trust in another man's old universe theories.

Like Abraham's contrariness, my father, Thomas W. Pearlman Esq. thought independently and overcame adversity to build Torah education and practice from Providence. By eighth grade biology that education made it clear secular humanism fails to explain the source of physical matter.

As a Commodity Trading Advisor (CTA) I see plenty of follow the crowd over the cliff mentality. Things often look best at the top and worst at bottoms. Blindly following "financial experts" will usually lead to disaster. Likewise there has been great damage from "scientific" theory portrayed as fact. Amalek denied the Creator's management rights over man. The Nazi's followed based on evolution doctrine. In 'Mirrors of Eternity' R' Nachman Cohen demonstrates how different perceptions of the Creation even effect Halacha.

As Joseph advised prepare during years of plenty to survive and prosper pending lean years. Success in life is a function of knowledge, effort and execution. It is advisable to review both physical and spiritual portfolios on an ongoing basis.

Those with a limited perspective often tout overvalued assets and shun good value. The same applies in the world of beliefs. Awareness of the recent creation should enhance appreciation of the Creator, our selves, Torah, Sabbath, Israel and the Universe.



Part I

1) Hashem is the One and Only Creator:

Avraham determined Hashem is continually managing, sustaining and willing the existence of the universe. There is one Creator. Einstein's success was premised on this. Intelligent design is consistent throughout the universe proving one common creator. One can see wisdom in about anything and everything in 'The Amazing World we live in'.[i] The way things interrelate, and similar features in different species, like eyes above a nose then mouth, or wings on birds, pterosaurs, bats, and insects (that would not have evolved even once by chance),11 all prove one common creator. Protons, nucleons, electrons or the strands of vibrating energy that compose all matter, prove one common creator. All forms of life having the same type of genetic code prove a common creator.2 Diversity in life and if multiple styles in the Bible prove the Creator, with 13 revealed attributes, is not limited to any mode. Until a unified theory is disseminated that reveals the complete truth no one name has been adequate to describe Hashem.13 The Creator is not limited by His creation. See commentary on Maimonides 13 principals of Jewish faith.



18) & .27 Exodus 31:16-17

[i] Title of book, illustrating intelligent design, by Katz/Cohen

11 'Not by Chance, Shattering the Modern Theory of Evolution' by Dr. Lee Spetner

2 Gerald L Schroeder, Genesis and the Big Bang, pp 113, 84, 109, .

13 'Bible Basics' by Jerome S. Hahn and Zechariah 14:9

part II Part III

quote:

Originally posted by Yocheved Broscova-Guerra:
There is a swan (the Mute I believe) which is a cross of two other birds (a goose and something else) which was bred and given as royale gifts. They were the first fertile inter-species union discovered. It has been ten years since I read all this, but their propagation is now excessive without human aid. They are clearly the minority but they do exist. The black swan was then created off of this bird and is also fertile.

Yocheved, (coming back to the subject), I think it means that they did not exactly delineate the species at the time, and the other bird was really genetically in the same entity of birds as the goose, no matter how differently htey looked...

Interesting....I like the idea of the birds having come from a single pair and the sub-species coming off of them. It is interesting, and seems to account for quite a few questions...the girls have the benefit of a classical Orthodox education, whereas I did not, so have to study on my own to find out what Talmud Torah says on all this, but I always pick the girls' brains for what they learned in Mishnah, Navi and Talmud classes! The more anyone has to offer on this, do share! Yocheved

I have not heard the theories of evolution and creation debated in a post-Einstein and post-Lorents paradigm. The arguments disregard relativity altogether and presume time to be linear. I think that if relativety is taken into account much of what we struggle with can be explained. It's as though creationists are arguing the Kadosh Baruch Hu's intellectual property, while the evolutionists are arguing the Kadosh Baruch Hu's manufacturing rights on that intellectual property. There is a unified model that can reconcile both.

Einstein once gave the analogy of twin brothers, one that left on a space ship at the speed of light. While the analogy eventually falls apart, he explains the concept of different time frames that are current but different from each other. So it's possible to have the Creator's time frame and the created's time frame simultaneously. Rav Schroder and Rav Arye Kaplan have written on this although it hasn't made its way into the popular scientific world.

So science is really catching up to Torah. The two are not mutually exclusive, they are really the same thing. Scientists don't realize it but our Sages have always taught that Torah is the blueprint of the universe. The blueprint came first and then the universe was created from that blueprint. Scientists' attempts to make science as remote from Torah as possible is folly.

I agree with this statement whole-heartedly. Although HaSh-m is CAPABLE of doing nearly anything, it seems clear to me that he took His time with creation (speaking from this perspective of time, creation's that is) as an artist takes his/her time with a masterpiece. Sorry for the romantic model, but I am an artist, and I always take extra careful time and energy when the piece is for a loved-one reather than a commissioned piece. How much more so would HaSh-m for His people when He counts us everyday?

His time and our time are certainly related to what Einstein was discovering. I suspect it is far more vast, even, with other colinear time structures for other worlds/projects He is creating from His vast imagination. I am certain we have not yet scratched the surface of understanding of what He does and how He does it.

quote:

Yocheved Broscova-Guerra

Posted November 12, 2006 06:37 AM Hide Post
Interesting....I like the idea of the birds having come from a single pair and the sub-species coming off of them. It is interesting, and seems to account for quite a few questions... Yocheved

I believe the original number of avian base was 36 it wasn't over 72 or less then 20.
Does anyone know commentary that gives exact?

some interesting etymology see the origin of speeches by isaac mozeson:
OReV: Raven from OReV note how dark color of a raven may be a mnemonic device by naming it close to the name for evening EReV.
This shows why Edenic (base of biblical Hebrew) was the first language pre babel. what other language animal names so obvious connection between the names and unique features of the base species as Adam (pre Eve)gave in Gan Eden before diversification of the species that started within a breeding season.

Another:
OaF: egg laying quail and chicken type poultry source of ovary the source of egg, oval,..
roger m

Avi d'Israeli

Posted November 29, 2006 10:01 PM Hide Post
I have not heard the theories of evolution and creation debated in a post-Einstein and post-Lorents paradigm. The arguments disregard relativity altogether and presume time to be linear. I think that if relativety is taken into account much of what we struggle with can be explained.....

Einstein concluded dark matter his biggest blunder yet science recycle this idea to fudge their failure.

Once you admit speed of light not fixed speed limit as most have mathematically a universe 5767 years old stretched out in 24 hours instead of 5 to 24 billion years just as valid an option.
now see what is most consistent account based on all factual science and a recent complex creation is not one over hundreds of thousands of our type years.

Reb Perlman,

quote:

Einstein concluded dark matter his biggest blunder yet science recycle this idea to fudge their failure.

Once you admit speed of light not fixed speed limit as most have mathematically a universe 5767 years old stretched out in 24 hours instead of 5 to 24 billion years just as valid an option.
now see what is most consistent account based on all factual science and a recent complex creation is not one over hundreds of thousands of our type years.

Einstein's "biggest blunder" as he called it was not dark matter, but the cosmological constant that he forced into his equations to make the universe appear mathematically static. Without it, it was expanding. Later, Hubble (the namesake of the space telescope) analyzed the data to confirm that the universe is really expanding. On reading Hubble's paper, Einstein said that the cosmological constant was the biggest blunder of his career.

Regarding the speed of light, it is constant, but time does flow differently in different gravities, according to Einstein's General Relativity. As a result, when the universe was very densely packed (the size of a mustardseed, according to the Ramban), the time flowed differently than it does now when the concentration of matter in the universe is very low.

Thankyou for that, Rav Perlman-- I will look into the verses to read more. It is a fascinating account. I first began thinking about this when my macaw research was in full bloom. I bred Hyacinthine macaws for many years, and found two interesting things.

1. that the Hyacinthine macaws are their own subspecies (they eat, behave and even lay eggs out of sync with all other macaws) There is much evidence for this conclusion of mine, especailly since the diet they live on primarily contains approx. 75% fats (mostly things like macadamia nuts) and that self same diet will kill any other macaw in a period of two years approx. Also that they seem to have a close genetic link to the greenwing as they have been seen "socializing " back and forth on a normal basis (every evening) and even flirting back and forth and this behaviour is not normative to the hyacinth with regard to other birds.

2. my harlequin macaw is an odd guy. It turns out that the harlequin is a naturally occurring hybrid WHICH IS NOT STERILE. They happen inthe wild and they can produce offspring with either of their parents: a greenwing, or a blue and gold, and even with other harlequins.

This lead me into more studies of avian "evolution" as it can be loosely referred to. Anyway, for what it is worth. I am an avid aviculturist so see things through those lenses.

Thanks for that correction Alex.

You're welcome.

Alex wrote: Einstein's "biggest blunder" as he called it was not dark matter, but the cosmological constant that he forced into his equations to make the universe appear mathematically static. Without it, it was expanding. Later, Hubble (the namesake of the space telescope) analyzed the data to confirm that the universe is really expanding. On reading Hubble's paper, Einstein said that the cosmological constant was the biggest blunder of his career..-

RMP relpy:
I think the cosmological constant was somehow relater to dark or black matter theory. Either way I will amend my work to be more accurate thanks,

Alex writes: Regarding the speed of light, it is constant, but time does flow differently in different gravities, according to Einstein's General Relativity. As a result, when the universe was very densely packed (the size of a mustardseed, according to the Ramban), the time flowed differently than it does now when the concentration of matter in the universe is very low.

RMP reply: So if a blimp is going at a speed of 50 MPH with no tail wind, and assuming a tail wind would increase speed 1 MPH for every 1 MPH of tailwind, a 50 MPH tail wind would have the blimp moving 100 MPH,
You are saying the blimp is moving at a fixed rate?
It does not matter if you want to call that fixed or not, the result is the same.

Academic science has trouble explaining how the universe has light reaching earth from stars that adds up to twice the age they date the universe.
Inflation theory with the universe initially expanding after a big bang at speeds vastly greater then the normal speed of light, is one answer they give to reconcile the two.
Once you admit the speed of light is not constant, or is constant but relative to size/density etc of the universe there is no mathematical reason to deny that stars 20 billion normal light years away can just as well be in a universe six thousand years old as one 6 billion.
rmp

Alex wrote: Einstein's "biggest blunder" as he called it was not dark matter, but the cosmological constant that he forced into his equations to make the universe appear mathematically static. Without it, it was expanding. Later, Hubble (the namesake of the space telescope) analyzed the data to confirm that the universe is really expanding. On reading Hubble's paper, Einstein said that the cosmological constant was the biggest blunder of his career..-

RMP relpy:
I think the cosmological constant was somehow relater to dark/black energy/matter theory. Either way I will amend my work to be more accurate thanks,

Alex writes: Regarding the speed of light, it is constant, but time does flow differently in different gravities, according to Einstein's General Relativity. As a result, when the universe was very densely packed (the size of a mustardseed, according to the Ramban), the time flowed differently than it does now when the concentration of matter in the universe is very low.

RMP reply: So if a blimp is going at a speed of 50 MPH with no tail wind, and assuming a tail wind would increase speed 1 MPH for every 1 MPH of tailwind, a 50 MPH tail wind would have the blimp moving 100 MPH,
You are saying the blimp is moving at a fixed rate?
It does not matter if you want to call that fixed or not, the result is the same.

Academic science has trouble explaining how the universe has light reaching earth from stars that adds up to twice the age they date the universe.
Inflation theory with the universe initially expanding after a big bang at speeds vastly greater then the normal speed of light, is one answer they give to reconcile the two.
Once you admit the speed of light is not constant, or is constant but relative to size/density etc of the universe there is no mathematical reason to deny that stars 20 billion normal light years away can just as well be in a universe six thousand normal years old after the initial expansion/stretch on day one of creation as one 6 billion.
rmp

RMP,

That speed of light thing is very confusing, isn't it? According to the special relativity theory (the one that's related to mechanics only, without gravity involved), if that "blimp" is moving at near 300,000,000 m/sec (speed of light), it is still moving at that speed, even when viewed from another "blimp" moving in the opposite direction at the same speed. The solution to this paradox is that the space and time change their properties at the speed of light.

At our "regular" speeds, of course when I am moving at 50 MPH and you are moving at 50 MPH, and we are moving in the opposite directions on a collision course, then I will see you moving toward me at 100 MPH.

The speed of light IS constant. However, the General Relativity Theory (the one that involves gravity) explains that the light path is bent by heavy objects (stars, galaxies, etc. Result - the actual path that the light is passing is different than what we see, and those stars appear to us older than the universe; in addition, the time goes at a different "rate" on heavier objects than on lighter objects, and therefore it is indeed possible that while 20 billion years pass in one gravity field is 6,000 years in another gravity field.