I have had reason to think it might be a good idea if I sought the services of a counsellor. This counsellor is in a tertiary counselling training part of a big tertiary institution. It uses an approach called reflective listening teams. One talks to a trained counsellor but towards the end of the session two students who have been observing give their comments about what they observed.

One aspect of my problem for which I sought counselling is that I have a lot to do with three people whose behaviour is repugnant to me and is not good Jewish behaviour. But I had some related confusion, self doubt and pain that I thought a counsellor might be able to help me with. Also I need to work out what to do and be able to do it somehow and I thought the counsellor might help with this also.

I was really bothered in my counselling session today because the students in giving their feedback strongly suggested that I had a sort of "unrecognized genius" syndrome (I took this to be a sarcastic comment)because it seemed I stood against these people in the same way I was standing up to the counsellor (actually, how they put it was refusing to engage in dialogue with her about some solutions she suggested - I said no, I don't want to do that and wouldn't be swayed by the counsellors arguments about why I should do those things). As I saw it, I was just keeping true to what seemed right to me and was exercising my G-d given free will to do so.

I am still working through this counselling experience. I found it to be very unpleasant. Actually I felt angry listening to this stuff.

Would some people comment please? I think I could benefit from your feedback.

I see at the nefesh.org site's contact page NEFESH contact that they have an Australia regional contact.

To the degree that this counselling approach may be counter to Torah values might be something about which a Nefesh member could have some useful insight to share, and if this counsellor or clinic is espousing non-Torah views, perhaps a better resource can be found.

Did you have any sense that the student counselors or the counselor had subjective views in opposition to Torah and your Torah values?

Thanks Rob.

This experience, which was yesterday, bothered me. I was so unsettled that I stayed up far too late with the matter on my mind. I take no credit for this. Was I a better Torah student, etc, I am sure it would have been like water off a duck's back.

But I did a lot of working on this matter, as I stayed up and did tidying things. And things got clearer. So I can clearly say yes to your question "Did you have any sense that the student counselors or the counselor had subjective views in opposition to Torah and your Torah values?". They were on a totally different wavelength and they were not respecting mine. I don't think they could even "hear" me properly.

Also, as I process the encounter , I realised that it is debatable whether the free-form and subjective nature of how all three were guiding their actions, could be guaranteed as even partially reflecting a wise perspective.

I decided to give them the "sack" (fire them).

I am still left with thinking through to do re the nature of appropriate counselling for someone like myself who aspires to be Torah observant. The task here has many layers. At the simplest level, I think I need a Torah observant counsellor. That's a big ask. So what does a person like myself do when they feel they need a counsellor?

quote:

Originally posted by rob:
I see at the nefesh.org site's contact page NEFESH contact that they have an Australia regional contact.

To the degree that this counselling approach may be counter to Torah values might be something about which a Nefesh member could have some useful insight to share, and if this counsellor or clinic is espousing non-Torah views, perhaps a better resource can be found.

Did you have any sense that the student counselors or the counselor had subjective views in opposition to Torah and your Torah values?

I should add, with respect your concluding question, that I was very aware of hostility coming from the three towards me. Later on, I questioned myself whether I was projecting , but I am sure I was not, and I was in no doubt then.

Actually, what I did when the counsellor and I sat down after the feedback from the 2 students, and she asked me how I felt about the feedback, I firstly said I didn't agree at all and felt angry about it. And then I told them I was an orthodox Jew and that , as such, I disagreed with cetain behaviours of others or their expectations of me, and that I had a right to do so. Did I do the right thing ?

My observation of the hostility in these three, on various criteria, including non verbal (which I can read very well), may actually be a factor that unsettled me the most. I questioned whether I make people hostile , per se. I was massively doubting myself. And they actually did work to put this idea in my head. In effect, their personalisation of things made me wonder if I was flawed. I now think this may have been insidious of them. Or have I gone and reasoned through this unsupportably? You can tell me honestly.

And can a Torah resonant Jew hope to profit from secular counselling?

quote:

Originally posted by rob:
I see at the nefesh.org site's contact page NEFESH contact that they have an Australia regional contact.

To the degree that this counselling approach may be counter to Torah values might be something about which a Nefesh member could have some useful insight to share, and if this counsellor or clinic is espousing non-Torah views, perhaps a better resource can be found.

Did you have any sense that the student counselors or the counselor had subjective views in opposition to Torah and your Torah values?

I have had some experience here as well, having sought out counseling for various life issues over the years (as well as being a nurse, although I don't directly work in the psychiatric field). I have found the science of psychology helpful (used in parallel with kabbalisitc study - the Tanya, for example). Secular counseling, on the other hand - if used for issues with deeply spiritual impact can be insidiously detrimental to mental health (through damage done unconsiously to the soul). The anger you felt may be a "righteous anger" - in other words, a rebellion of your soul to whatever it was fed that your mind may not have grasped as anything "out of line". Anger, sometimes is not an "ego defense" mechanism but is a "soul defense" mechanism. Most will tell you anger is always bad. This is not true. Listen to what anger is telling you, discern its source, channel anger's expression rightly and respond appropriately to anger's message to you. That is a tall order, I admit. Doing it also somewhat of an artform. Likewise, a good therapist is an artist of sorts. I have yet to find one.

The approach typically used in secular counseling is very much a medical model, which discounts (at worst) or minimizes (at best) a spiritual component. When secular counseling does admit a spiritual component, that component does not tend to align with the dynamics of a neshamah. Of course, (I imagine) there are always rare exceptions, but generally, secular counseling can be covertly dangerous to one actively upon a Torah path to spiritual development and devekut in service to Hashem.

Unfortunately, in the current mental health system, for those mental health issues with a biological component as well as a psychospiritual dynamic, secular counseling is often a requirement to receive needed medication. So, a person, to receive medication must subject his or her neshamah to an insidious poison. A no-win situation. I am torn regarding advice here. If one needs medication badly (to control psychotic episodes, for example), it may be advisable to do the best one can with the system we have and to find a rabbi or learned other one can trust for some balance.

Also, I have a question regarding this topic of mental health as it pertains to a Torah path and soul development.

I am a scientist (biochemist) by education (worked in pharmaceutical research for awhile) as well as a nurse, so I have a broad scope of interest as it pertains to understanding these issues. I also have autist "features" to my personality, so my interest is not merely "clinical" or "scientific".

During my research of autism, I have come across the hypothesis that pyschosis and mental illness can be described in terms of altered states of consciousness, where a person has not developed the ability to channel the "mystical" experience properly. In other words, a person has an undeveloped or misdeveloped disposition toward "mystical" states of consciousness - i.e., is unable to "handle" the altered state in a productive way. This sounds reasonable to me.

Can anyone provide more information on this?

Thank you,
Liorah

Hi Lori,

Thank you for replying to my enquiry.

I agree with you.

When I first posed my question in this forum, I was still upset. Now a week has elapsed and I have worked through the counselling experience. So now I can say that , yes, it most definitely was righteous anger I was feeling. And I knew it at the time, which was why I came back at them saying I was Jewish. How dare they tell me what to do, expecting me to do it !!!! I have the right to choose a good Jewish path. And what makes them know better than I do about things ? Nothing that I observed. In fact I thought they were all pretty ignorant and inept regarding counselling and I could make a good argument for that conclusion, I believe.

Actually, their authoritarianism goes right against the sort of counselling and psychotherapy principles I believe in anyway. I believe the counsellor or therapist is merely and instrument that hopefully leads to the client's growth in the right direction. And, according to what I believe, not only is the counsellor just a fallible human being regardless of " expert" status , but all people should decide for themselves unless they have to be protected from harming themselves (and one has to be careful in deciding this). The counsellor just helps the person decide , as requested. I'm not talking about Rabbis, etc.

Yes,I think that these people were using a medical model in the sense that they assumed I was incompetent because I sought help. And they automatically assumed they were in a position to tell me what to do by virtue of their roles as therapist and reflecting team. They knew nothing of my profession or more than the barest background details as I carefully chose not to reveal this to them, for my own professional protection in the workforce.

Lol! I was just thinking of how the therapist started off the session asking me wheter I was getting busy with Christmas. All I said was that it was not on my agenda and she gave me a disapproving look. Assumptions, assumptions ! : all fantasy ! They all three just put their stuff onto me. Little did they know that I was discerning enough to see them doing it.

Looking back on the whole experience now, what I see is that, after it was over, I started to doubt myself and to worry because of their feelings and expessions of negativity and anger. And this despite my cognitive awareness of their ignorance and my disapproval of their authoritarianism. This is a weakness that I need to work on and I am trying to do that now. To put the value onto them and to doubt my own is to make them idols. I need to find a good basis for my actions and then not worry about the reactions of others.

What do you think about my telling them I was Jewish?

About what you said about medication, I agree also as long as a person can cope without it and not need it to stabilize extreme symptamology. Ideally one would have the support of a rabbi or other well grounded Jew to help one journey through the suffering which is just the sign that things are not as they should be, somehow (and there could be ways of seeing this unsatisfactory state of affairs, and which therefore needs dealing with, that a secular counsellor would never consider).

And, I can say that what I really wanted to know was how to deal with these people in my life in a good devout way.

quote:

Originally posted by lori:
I have had some experience here as well, having sought out counseling for various life issues over the years (as well as being a nurse, although I don't directly work in the psychiatric field). I have found the science of psychology helpful (used in parallel with kabbalisitc study - the Tanya, for example). Secular counseling, on the other hand - if used for issues with deeply spiritual impact can be insidiously detrimental to mental health (through damage done unconsiously to the soul). The anger you felt may be a "righteous anger" - in other words, a rebellion of your soul to whatever it was fed that your mind may not have grasped as anything "out of line". Anger, sometimes is not an "ego defense" mechanism but is a "soul defense" mechanism. Most will tell you anger is always bad. This is not true. Listen to what anger is telling you, discern its source, channel anger's expression rightly and respond appropriately to anger's message to you. That is a tall order, I admit. Doing it also somewhat of an artform. Likewise, a good therapist is an artist of sorts. I have yet to find one.

The approach typically used in secular counseling is very much a medical model, which discounts (at worst) or minimizes (at best) a spiritual component. When secular counseling does admit a spiritual component, that component does not tend to align with the dynamics of a neshamah. Of course, (I imagine) there are always rare exceptions, but generally, secular counseling can be covertly dangerous to one actively upon a Torah path to spiritual development and devekut in service to Hashem.

Unfortunately, in the current mental health system, for those mental health issues with a biological component as well as a psychospiritual dynamic, secular counseling is often a requirement to receive needed medication. So, a person, to receive medication must subject his or her neshamah to an insidious poison. A no-win situation. I am torn regarding advice here. If one needs medication badly (to control psychotic episodes, for example), it may be advisable to do the best one can with the system we have and to find a rabbi or learned other one can trust for some balance.

I can't give an expert comment here so I won't even try. I hope somebody else will do so.

But I can share how I myself view autism in a practical sense. Of course there is deep stuff in one below the surface ,but what I mean is that I can't approach this in the sense you were after. I personally get with the person in a relational/connecting way and try to assist them from where they are to achieve the goals in front of them. I and they need to use methods appropriate to our intertwined goals - they have their goals for them and I have mine for me. Sometimes I need to bring to bear an effective and suitably conducted "confrontation" process of my goals and theirs if they have to do with the same process but we have different outcomes in mind.

How does this sound ? I possibly could put it a lot better. I struggle with words sometimes. I hope I am adding something of interest to you.

quote:

Originally posted by lori:
Also, I have a question regarding this topic of mental health as it pertains to a Torah path and soul development.

I am a scientist (biochemist) by education (worked in pharmaceutical research for awhile) as well as a nurse, so I have a broad scope of interest as it pertains to understanding these issues. I also have autist "features" to my personality, so my interest is not merely "clinical" or "scientific".

During my research of autism, I have come across the hypothesis that pyschosis and mental illness can be described in terms of altered states of consciousness, where a person has not developed the ability to channel the "mystical" experience properly. In other words, a person has an undeveloped or misdeveloped disposition toward "mystical" states of consciousness - i.e., is unable to "handle" the altered state in a productive way. This sounds reasonable to me.

Can anyone provide more information on this?

Thank you,
Liorah

Rosemary,

Thank you for your reply. For a time, I worked with developmentally challenged children and adults. Having worked with this population, as well as having some autistic "features" to my own personality, I can reliably say that no "therpeutic" approach will succeed without trust. There tends to be no middle ground of quasi-trust within this population - trust can be easily given, and it can also be easily lost. At the other extreme, some require years of deliberate effort to build a foundation of trust. However trust is developed, it must be real, because, at least in my experience, this population is not easily fooled in this area, whatever level of intelligence. Trust is not necessarily a function of cognitive reasoning, but a matter of "soul perception", particularly in this population. I'm not an expert either. This is just based upon my own rather limited experience.

By nature, I like to figure out how things work. Therein lies the reason for my question as to the connection between mystical-prophetic states of consciousness and pathologically altered states of consciousness. This idea, that the two phenomenoma are connected, should be explored, IMO. It could open up more effective methods of treatment for those affected by mental illness. Importantly, if we could understand the connection, treatment aims might not be merely symptomatic relief, but lead to a "cure" of sorts. I don't know, of course. But, it's worth investigating, I think.

Lori,

Yes indeed.

I think also that this matter should be explored. And that many other deep matters regarding personal growth and struggles should be explored. Perhaps with time. I say this as a psychologist and psychotherapist and as somebody whom, after marriage, has had seriously to contend with the matter of secularly/psychologically defined (with all the limitations inherent in that) autism (Asberger's syndrome; leaving aside the issues of inadequate conceptualisation which exists). There is more I would like to say on this but I think I should perhaps not be so frank here (but I don't really know that for sure).

Regarding autistic features, I have often wondered if using autism as a diagnostic category, writ big in front of us, could be a mistake, at least when trying to deal with the person, including, oneself perhaps, and the goals accepted. And it can be seen as a stigma and a handicap whereas perhaps it is more of a gift, with a downside (as all gifts have).

And I have had a lurking suspicion for a long time, that so called autistic features may, at least sometimes, be more a case of selecting out people who seem different in some particular ways and of then putting them in a reject/problem basket. Might it not also be possible that, while these people may be different from the norm, they are not necessarily deficient per se but may be just a different example of human beings at some point(s) of development and faced with the challenge of living with people who are treating them dysfunctionally (through ignorance or an inability to empathise, etc, not necessarily anything but loving intentions) in many ways which are destabilizing or harming and are not facilitating their growth to potential (some of which may be gifted, and gifted in ways not commonly understood). Maybe people with autism need people with special gifts and devotion to assist them to flourish. Which doesn't imply handicap.

By the way, I am grateful for that Nefesh website and which I knew nothing about before. I wish... I am a stubborn person who keeps on persisting to pull myself up by my bootstraps. But I have experienced too much aloneness in this. Maybe there have been benefits from that but much less struggle, mistakes and delay. But who can say how things should be?

Hi Rosmary,

This is just my opinion, but as far as I'm aware, G-d doesn't mention psychologists in the Torah. I think the brain is something that only G-d understands completely and in saying that, psychologists adhere to a different understanding of human fraility, thus treating people in a different manner.

A friend of mine once went to a tertiary counsellor, as they were having trouble with their studies...basically, my friend told me that they cried in front of this counscellor because they were so upset...the couscellor's response:'you seem to be emotional and i think you might benefit from going on medication'...yikes! So, my friend then went to another counscellor and they said 'your only problem is that you lack self esteme, here are some great articles to read and they explain how to be more assertive and confident in life'. Well, my friend went on to finish university and is now happily enjoying her life.

What am i saying? hmmm...basically, there are some good people in all walks of life, but why take the risk trying to find them when you have access to all the Torah, which obviously has everything, from birth to marriage to how to eat healthy food. Of course, if it is a more personal problem, then you do need to talk to someone, if it is even too personal to talk with a Rabbi, there is always the Rabbi's wife

Thank you Kaitlin.

I am troubled about what to say back to you. But I will try.

Torah rules AOK. So I'm not knocking it.

Put it like this: There are some things in my life that are very burdomesome to me. It is a struggle to cope with them at times. I did ask the rabbi. He said to read the psalms and do voluntary work. Can't fault that. Trouble is, I still can't figure how to cope with what is just about tearing me apart. So I went to a counsellor. Done so several times, actually. Maybe it's pot luck. The pots I tried were empty. Or they started flying around and hit me in the head. So I lucked out. And the burdems remain.

The search continues.

How about a counselour who has a Torah based philosophy?

Sure. Sounds good in theory. I did try a Jewish shrink, hoping he'd fit the bill. He basically nodded ever so often and, when I paused too long, asked me a question that seemed to do nothing but keep me talking till the 45 mins were up. It kinda got boring, going nowhere .And paying out all that hard to find loot didn't seem justified.Guess he wasn't into Torah and counselling. Couldn't find anyone else here.

have you read any books from Rabbi Twersky?

http://www.artscroll.com/cgi-bin/searchtitle?Author=Rabbi_Abraham_J._Twerski

Take a look at the different titles available, and you'll see that this person is not just any "Psychologist"

Yes. I have a number of his books. He is very excellent.

wow rosemary, i wish i could help, but of course on this board, if it is a deeply personal issue it may not be so easy to devulge. The only thing that tears me apart is if I love someone and they don't love me back...that can hurt and feeling hurt is ok, but it just not fun!

Yes, this board is perhaps not the best arena for some things.

Yes, longing for somebody to be one's partner but finding that it is not to be can sure hurt. And it is certainly not fun. Accepting this is a first step.Then comes the journey of moving on, with all its struggles and stages.

My take on not being loved in return is that one cannot lose what one never had. Better to focus on where one is and move on from there.

yes,...time for me to move on...

Dear Kaitlin,

I replied to your message last night when I was very tired and not in an ideal mental state because of unpleasant events I had had experienced that night, though I thought, at the time, that I was ok. I am very sorry : I think my reply to you then was not good enough.

I find constantly that, if I pay attention and don't get too locked insuarly insise my self, Hashem is constantly showing me the way to go, as the psalms say. Well, today, Hashem did it again ! Wow ! I keep getting gobsmacked over that.

I won't go into all the details of what led up to my lesson, but, in essence, I followed a trail that finally led me to a strong experiencing of a very deep need of mine. It isn't for somebody I love ,but for a collection of , still to me, nameless Jewish souls , you could say, with whom I am at home and belong,so gaining much of assorted things. I have some tentativel and ever changing imagined ideas about what this group might be like, but really, I suddenly realised, it is just like your unrequited love in that what is real is my need and longing for what I think could be there.

So it isn't sufficient just to say that the relationship isn't real and to move on from where one is. Though there is a truth in that, I think. There is something else going on which one needs to really connect with so one can move on. I still think that it is picking up the stick by the wrong end to fix too strongly on something imagined as if it will for sure fulfill one's longing, because that is really a fantasy. And it still seems true to me that we have to start when and as we are (see the Rebbe Nachman of Breslov's tale about the prince who thought he was a turkey - go to Amazon.com and trawl around, starting with putting in the name Avraham Greenbaum as a search starter, thanks to this name being given to me privately by a special person who visits this Global Yeshiva with us) . But I now see that it needs to be stated very explicitly that there is a process involved - things don't evolve by magic. And, to make progress, one needs to get onto the nature and dynamics of the longing that is tearing at one's heart and so giving that no fun "hurt" you mentioned, so one can try to work out what to do.

I haven't come up with a pat answer for either you or myself. But maybe we have a bit more to go on, if my musings make sense.

All the best,

Rosemary