I have a friend who's been with a non-Jewish woman for several years and may just marry her. He's got a good heart but his moral compass is a bit misaligned. He's one of these people who assigns the same value to everything and everyone, making it easy to eliminate "should" from his life. That is to say, if every person on the planet is equal the why "should" he marry a Jew?
We've had long conversations on equality and value and absolute morality and other such stuff. I've spoken to him alone and with the help of others but he won't budge, although he loves to argue, which makes me think he wants to be convinced.

Anyway, it's frustrating. Had to share.

Hf

Oh, yeah... he's in his early 30's, in case anyone's wondering.

I recommend the book 'Why Marry Jewish?' by Doron Kornbluth.

here's a link
why marry Jewish

Thank you for providing the link Sharona.

HemifloWer, was it useful to you?

I remember seeing this same post or something very similar addressed to Rabbi Aaron Moss of Australia. If I did not, I know that he addresses the issue of Intermarraige in length and has received numerous questions on this issue. For articles by him regarding Intermarraige go to http://www.algemeiner.com and click on one of the icons on the front page and on the side of each page is a directory of articles in that folder - read the ones by Rabbi Aaron Moss.

quote:

That is to say, if every person on the planet is equal the why "should" he marry a Jew?

It's not about being 'equal' rather it's about wanting to marry someone who shares the same respect for your religion, culture and traditions as you. What does universalism really mean? Does it mean that we should marry someone without any regard for his/her racial and cultural background? If that would be the case than the minority group would statistically marry into the dominant group and their culture and religion would be lost, and there would be only one group! So what would be so great about universalism if we are all the same?

Is he aware that if he marries a non-jewish woman, his children will not be Jewish. Patrelinial descent is only recognised by Reform Jews, which is approximately 2 million out of 18 million jews. The chances are great that his child will meet someone and then will find out that he/she is not Jewish. This is devastating for the child and it is cruel and unfair for anyone to subject their child to it.

How does he feel about his child going to church? How does he feel about his child believing in JC? How does he feel about his child (not in his lifetime) being buried in a church?

quote:

It's not about being 'equal' rather it's about wanting to marry someone who shares the same respect for your religion, culture and traditions as you.

Why would not being Jewish automatically imply that someone wouldn't share, "the same respect for your religion, culture and traditions", not all Gentiles are Xians or belong to a faith that spits on Judaism.

Dov, I didn't mean to imply that all Gentiles do not respect Judaism, rather I meant it in terms of keeping and passing on respect for Jewish traditions and commandments. It has been shown that when someone has a child they become more religiously aware, they want to pass onto their child their religion. Will the non-jewish partner share the same thoughts on circumcising the child? Or will they want to baptise the child. Again it has been shown that even in couples where they both decide beforehand to raise the child Jewish, this changes once the couple have a child. And anyway, why should a couple raise the child Jewish rather than non-Jewish, why should one partner have his/her way above the other?

Please see this post for some Torah sources as to why we cannot marry Gentiles. http://globalyeshiva.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9046063...891006421#7891006421

The Following is the clip off of http://www.algemeiner.com written by Rabbi Aaron Moss of Australia. Rabbi Moss fields many questions in the area of Intermarriage and has a witty yet sensitive approach in answering them. I hope that this will serve as effective for all who need to use it.

Question:

Rabbi, I am not asking for a sermon -- I get enough of them from my parents. I am asking for an explanation.

I am seriously dating a girl who is everything I ever dreamed of. She is smart, pretty, funny. Definitely marriage material. But -- you guessed it -- she isn't Jewish. My parents have refused to even meet her and have told me that if we get married they won't come to the wedding. My grandmother is beside herself.

My question is: My parents aren't religious, we never kept kosher or any of the Jewish festivals. There was nothing very Jewish about our home. Why all of a sudden are they so Jewish when it comes to whom I marry? Isn't that totally hypocritical? When I ask them this question, they just answer: "This is different." But that makes no sense to me. Why is this different?

Answer:
This is not only your personal question; it is the question of the generation: Why does intermarriage touch a nerve in so many people more than any other Jewish issue?

Your frustration is well-founded. It is unreasonable of your parents to expect Judaism to be important to you if it never seemed important to them. What's more, they can't explain to you why they feel the way they do. They probably can't even explain it to themselves. But I have a theory.

There is a profound truth that somehow our parents learnt subconsciously from their parents, and that is: Jewishness is who you are, not what you do.

There is no such thing as one Jew who is more Jewish than another. Whether you practice Jewish customs or not, keep the festivals or not, live in Israel or not, eat sushi or not, a Jew is a Jew is a Jew. Jewishness is an irreversible status that is not defined by how you live your life.

A Jew may be sitting in a church eating bacon on Yom Kippur dressed up as Santa Claus, but he's still 100% Jewish. Is he a good Jew? A faithful Jew? A proud Jew? G-d knows. But a Jew he remains. Because Jewishness isn't something you do; it's something you are. Nothing you do can affect who you are.

Nothing, that is, with one exception: whom you marry.

The person you marry becomes a part of who you are. Getting married is not a hobby or a career move; it is making someone else a part of your identity, and becoming a part of theirs. Your spouse fills a void in your very being, and you fill the void in them. So marriage, like Jewishness, is not something you do, it is something you are.

Every person, non-Jew and Jew alike, is created in the image of G-d. There is nothing, heaven forbid, wrong with non-Jews. But they aren't Jewish. If you marry a non-Jew, you're still 100% Jewish, but a part of you -- your other half -- is not. You can be happy together. You can be in love with each other. But there is a part of you that you will never share.

Maybe this is the challenge of our generation: to face the questions of what it means to be in love, what it means to marry, and what it means to be Jewish. And -- unlike any generation before us -- come up with real answers.
Rabbi Aron Moss

This is yet another question that was posed to Rabbi Moss in the area of Intermarraige. Read and be entertained. Read and become wise. Read and stop people who you know are struggling from intermarrying.

Question:

It happened again, Rabbi Moss. I fell in love with a non-Jewish girl. You know I have tried to meet Jewish girls, but I just don't hit it off with them. I hate to put it this way, but I feel allergic to Jewish women. It seems that the more determined I am to marry a Jew, the more fantastic non-Jewish girls come into my life. I am not religious, but I would like my children to be Jewish and I wish to raise a Jewish family. But how long can I wait? Maybe G-d is hinting to me that I should marry out of the faith?


Rabbi, you don’t seem like the kind of guy who advocates intermarriage. Yet I know you to be an honest person. Would you honestly tell me if in my case, perhaps, intermarriage is the way to go?
Ben S.

Answer:
In a funny way, I think you may be right. The more determined you are to marry Jewish, the more fantastic the non-Jewish girls become. Let me explain.

Have you ever noticed how easy it is to be attracted to a movie star, or to a stranger on the street? Or how easy it is to fall in love with someone who is "unavailable," with your friend’s spouse? Why is this so?

Because love needs an open heart. If your heart is not open then even the most attractive and suitable person hasn't got a chance; the minute you open your heart, then you are ready for love.

What is the secret to opening our hearts? What is it that closes us up in the first place? There are many possibilities, but the number one obstacle to love is fear. A heart weighed down by fear cannot love. There are many forms of fear -- fear of marriage, fear of commitment, fear of making a decision, fear of making a mistake, fear of change, fear of responsibility, fear of losing freedom, fear of opening up. We all have such fears in varying degrees, and when they surface they paralyze our heart and prevent any love from flowing through us. To fall in love means first to let go of fear, because fear and love cannot coexist.

The problem is that it is precisely when we meet someone who we could potentially become serious with that these fears appear. When we know -- or we think we know -- that nothing serious will come of the dating, that there is no chance of this relationship going anywhere, then our fears don't surface. But when we sense that "this could be the one," the fears come up all at once.

In an ironical twist, we are more prone to falling in love when we are "just having fun," because our guard is down. It's easy to fall for a movie star we see on a screen or for a model in a magazine, because we have nothing to lose -- nothing will come of it, so our defenses are down, our fears dulled and our hearts open. Or when we look at our married friends and say to ourselves, "Why can't I find someone like his wife? I would be really happy with her!" That's an easy statement to make because she is unavailable; you can't marry her so you're open to see her for who she is. But if she were single you may not give her a second glance; your fears wouldn't allow it.

I think this is the key to your non-Jewish girl issue. You have made a firm decision -- you want to marry a Jewish girl. You have thus placed all non-Jewish girls out of range. By so doing, you immediately made them seem doubly attractive. Precisely because you see them as taboo, you have nothing to fear from them, and therefore, if you do start a relationship, "just for fun," you will easily fall in love with non-Jewish women.

But all of a sudden, when you are faced with exactly what you are looking for -- a nice Jewish girl -- a wall of defense is erected around your heart. The minute you sense that something real could come from this relationship, that there is true potential for a lifelong commitment, you are turned off. There is nothing the poor girl can do, because it is not her, it's you. Your fears have closed you off.

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe all Jewish girls are uninteresting. Perhaps when you grow up eating matza balls you become unattractive and boring. But knowing you Ben for some time and how many Jewish girls you have rejected, I think I may be on to something.

Take control of your fears, dear Ben, and open your heart to your true soul-mate. She's waiting for you.

quote:

Will the non-jewish partner share the same thoughts on circumcising the child? Or will they want to baptise the child. Again it has been shown that even in couples where they both decide beforehand to raise the child Jewish, this changes once the couple have a child. And anyway, why should a couple raise the child Jewish rather than non-Jewish, why should one partner have his/her way above the other?

I am sorry if I offended you, Gila, that was not my intention
I know of several couples where one partner is Jewish and the other is Pagan, and where there have been no problems in either observance, traditions or practice in regards to the children.

D

I'll tell you exactly why modern generations of Jews are having trouble marrying within their religion:

Before the 1950's or so, Jewish people lived more or less in Jewish communities. What did Jewish boys see all around them and get to know? Jewish girls. What did Jewish girls see all around them and get to know? Jewish boys.
People married Jewish people, had families, and took up residence in the same neighborhood. Their children did the same thing.

Increasingly, since that era, people have moved out into the suburbs, or to far-off cities. Modern transportation made it easy, and there were many reasons to go: nicer surroundings, better jobs. Jewish men moved with their Jewish wives and their Jewish children. Even though there was a synagogue within traveling distance, most of the neighbors were non-Jewish. Most of the children's classmates were non-Jewish.

If, by the time you're in your early twenties, you've gotten to know, say, 300 Jewish people of about your age and the opposite gender, there is a good likelihood that you'll like 10 of them enough to date and one of them enough to marry. That is what happens in a Jewish neighborhood.

If, on the other hand, you grow up in a predominantly non-Jewish neighborhood, of the 300 you get to know, maybe 20 are Jewish. Of those 20, possibly one seems interesting enough to date. What are the chances you'll hit it off with that one? Not nearly as great as with the previous scenario.

It amazes me how many parents bring their children into non-Jewish neighborhoods and then are surprised and angry when their children want to date those they see all around them. Many of these same parents don't even bother to take their children to synagogue, where they could meet more Jewish people their own age.

There are still some neighborhoods that are predominantly (or even all) Jewish. But these are the exception to the rule. I don't forsee us going back to ghettos - and I don't use that word in the derogatory sense. Honestly, I think more and more intermarriages are going to take place - and the children of these couples, even if raised Jewish, are even less likely to seek Jews to marry.

What can parents do? For one thing, if they move to a non-Jewish neighborhood, be sure to bring their children to synagogue regularly. Enroll them in the synagogue's Hebrew school and youth group. Visit other synagogues.

Act like being Jewish matters. Non of this non-observance throughout the child's life, then declaring that it is important he marry a Jew. He will not believe you. Carry out the Jewish rituals with joy, and let your children see and participate in this joy. Make them want to experience this same warmth within their own homes when they have children.

Colleges are communities of their own. Investigate which colleges have strong Jewish populations. Some state schools do, but most don't. You may want to start saving when your children are very young so you can afford to send them to a private college where there IS a strong Jewish population. MANY people meet their mates in college.

Find out about dating services for Jewish people. There are some on the web, and some in other places. If placing a personal ad, include the fact that you're Jewish. This wasn't available a generation ago, and is the one step forward toward getting young Jewish adults together.

...Unfortunately, I'm writing all this advice on a web site where the people don't need it. Most readers, I assume, are Orthodox, do practice Judaism with joy, and do expose their children to other Jews on a regular basis. I wrote this simply to address the question of why there is so much intermarriage now, and what people could do about it - if they cared. Intermarriage is mostly a problem with reform and non-practicing Jews. They will not read my post (or anyone else's), they will continue to do what they are doing, and some of them will still complain when their children intermarry. Also, sorry to say, some of them will not care at all when their children intermarry. And, I don't blame those children at all.

...Unfortunately, I'm writing all this advice on a web site where the people don't need it. Most readers, I assume, are Orthodox,

--------------------------------------

In my humble opinion, any and all info which can be distributed for others is handy and useful, even for Orthodox Jews who may have the opportunity to instill a spark of Yiddishkeit into another's heart. Your words are well appreciated and you did a great service with your post

Paulette, you are right. Statistically the rate of intermarriage is much much lower in New York. Why? Because there are so many Jews in New York, so there is a good chance that a Jew will marry a Jew.

Paulette, I agree with most of your post, except for one thing.

quote:

Before the 1950's or so, Jewish people lived more or less in Jewish communities. What did Jewish boys see all around them and get to know? Jewish girls. What did Jewish girls see all around them and get to know? Jewish boys.
People married Jewish people, had families, and took up residence in the same neighborhood. Their children did the same thing.

As a Jew who grew up in Russia, I was one out of 4 Jewish kids in my class of 30 all through the school. In college it was different, but still we only had about 15-20% Jews in the college I went to. Such proportion was artificial, because there were colleges where the pro-rated percentage of Jews were allowed, meaning that since there were about 2% Jews in the USSR, there were no more than 2% Jews allowed in such college; so it was roughly 2 - 30% of us across the board. Needless to say, any form of religion, especially one that was not Russian Orthodox Xtianity, was not allowed to be practiced on campuses. However, none of the Jews I knew from school or college or work when in Russia (maybe one or two) have married outside of their roots. And the ones who did are raising their children Jewish...

That said, of course when you live in a Jewish community, your chances of meeting a Jewish soulmate are higher. It's just that sometimes statistics seems to be defied by facts (I am a statistician ...), and that's when we discover that we did not cover all possible variables in our analysis.

Alex,
Your point is well taken. Of course there are Jews in non-Jewish neighborhoods who will decide for themselves that they WILL NOT marry outside the faith no matter what. I think that, especially in Russia during the time period you describe, there was good cause to strongly dislike the non-Jewish majority, unlike here in the U.S. where Jews and non-Jews pretty much live in peace. Whatever the reason, I'm happy to hear that what you say is true! (And happy to see one of your posts again!)

I think that one must compare the atmospheres. The non-Jewish and Jewish communities in the USSR of than were not closely tied nor sociologically fraternal as in the US. Correct me if I'm wrong....

A point to debate may also be the following: If one is really deeply rooted and emotionally involved in a relationship with someone not Jewish, it is going to be very difficult to sway him because logics aren't convincing over emotions. How do you all feel?

Family get togethers

I always sort of think the issue of assimilation as comparable to a family who have a custom that on several times throughout the year, they get together for a dinner and reflect on each's situations. Even some may live in Hoboken, some in Chicago, some in Denver and some in Toronto, when the date comes around, each one demands of himself not to split up with the family custom and arrive at the dinner table of their parents in Baltimore. When each one is to leave, they indeed are full with family memories, moments to share and remember and a feeling that the future is brighter by the fact that they are together.Let say the family is a household of 4 sons and 3 daughters. All are wed with their own children. If one of the sons decides, for reasons pertinent to him and by his prerogative, that he will cease to attend the family get togethers, how will the other family members feel? How will the parents feel? Yes- each one has a right to decide whether yes or no, but by deciding NO, he is divesting himself from his family.
The same is by intermarrying. One divests himself as such from his Jewish roots. Yes- he has the right to choose whoever he wishes to live with, and he's getting married for his own future, but he must weigh the consequences and accept the fact that he is pulling himself into solitary from his family ties. One has the right to decide to be a hermit, but shouldn't he feel that he owes his family the feeling that he should be a part? In weighing the sides for or against intermarrying with his high school sweety, shouldn't he feel that there is some obligation that he detaches himself from which he should take into consideration?