Why can't a woman be a Rabbi?

quote:

Originally posted by Gila:
Why can't a woman be a Rabbi?

Gila,

I think the main reason would, undoubtedly, be this: "He who is obligated to learn Torah, is obligated to teach Torah." Women are exempt from studying Torah, as it is written: ושננתם לבניך
Translated, "You shall teach them to your sons, etc." - "sons," but not "daughters."

David

Gila,
In a sense there are alot of women rabbis that are Rebbentzin.

B"H

Mack, Shalom!

They are only coined this name because their husbands are Rabbis.

David

David
yes david this is true but it doesn't change the fact that they are rabbtzin as much they deal with some of the same issues (consuling, teaching, etc varies rebbtzin to rebbtzin)that there husband deal with if not more somtimes.

as much we coin the pharse rabbi as we know there are no rabbis anymore (well unless you acknowldge the current sanhdrain)

B"H
Mack, Shalom!

Actually, it does make a world of difference. A Rebbetzin could not write a Mezuzzah, Torah scroll, Megillah, Tefillin, etc. as a Rabbi could do, no matter how talented she was. She also could never officiate as a "dayan" (Judge) in a rabbinic court, no matter how talented she was. And, I suppose, there are many other things which she could not do as a Rabbi, on account of the halacha. Teaching boys, for example, is not accepted practice, although she could easily teach other women.

David

You don't have to be a Rabbi to write a Sefer Torah, etc., just a man. So Gila's question remains.

yes Yisroel, the issue remains. as well not all rabbis write mezuzzah or are able to write a sefer Torah scroll. as far as teaching boys i have never heard of such a Halacha. though I have heard women teaching was an issue due to partent teaching meetings where the women might become alone with the child father.

though mostly it boils down to what i gather three reasons. Toharat Mispaha (family purity) , Modesty, family life stytle (i.e building the house). though the main one is custom and nothing more.

we have seen in torah where a woman renders a verdict so i wouldn't say she could never.

Through a more serious question should be asked why does a woman prefer a serlcuar caeer or to be a rabbi then to be a full time mother?

How does Toharos haMishpocha have anything to do with a woman being a rabbi or not?

As for asking for why a woman would prefer to be anything but a fulltime mother- well, think: not everyone has the ability to become a mother- should they just sit at home and twiddle their thumbs? some families need a wife to work for the income. There is not always only one side to the story. And there are not only two choices here- being a mother or working in a secular career. Someone can also work in a frum career.

The reason is as follows: See YD 246:6 that says that quotes the Mishna in Sotah 20 and is paraphrased by Kollel Iyun Hadaf.

1. R. Eliezer says, one who teaches his daughter Torah, teaches her frivolity;

The Shulchon Orech goes on to explain that MOST woman cannot (loosely translated) be able to separate their emotions and woman's issues from their studying.

Men and woman do not think a like. Though this is not accepted in Western culture (the president of Harvard was kicked out for even suggesting this) but this is the Metzious. In another post we had a question about a Rav Paskining when he's angry. Imagine having to paskin while you have PMS or other mood swings. Hashem created us with our own special talents for the purpose that he created us for. In order to serve him, we must accept upon ourselves what he wants and not what we want. Otherwise it's not serving Hashem but self serving.

I agree that women should not be given semicha because women cannot be judges. That said, there may be room for women to be advisors on matters that concern women. There is an interesting tshuva by the Beis HaLevi on why the Ramabam held that women are not required to fulfill the mitzvah of writing a sefer totah. During the course of discussing the issue, the Beis HaLevi talks about women and learning. He notes that women just like men have an obligation to study the deatils about any mitzvah that they are required to fulfill. Now that includes most of the negative commadments (Shabbat and Chometz, for example) and many of the positive commandments (Honor your parents, Ahavat Hashem, for example.) Do women get the schar of fulfilling the mitzvah of limud torah when they study those mitzvot? On that point the Beis HaLevi said: no, but admitted that he was disagreeing with the Sha'Agas Aryeh who held that when women study a mitzvah they are required to fulfill, they are getting the schar of the mitzvah of limud torah. My question to you, Reb Chaim is: when the Schulchan Aruch says that a man should not teach his daughter Torah was the Schulchan Aruch saying that a father cannot teach his daughter about Mitzvot that they are obligated to perform or was the Schulchan Aruch talking only about teaching them about Mitzvot that they are not obligated to perform?

I think there is 2 different things here. The rudementry knowledge of the Halachos so that they know what to do. This would seem an obligation for them and this is one of the reasons woman can make a Birchas Hatorah because of learning those Mitzvos.

To dwelve too much into the subject more than what is necessary to know how to do those Mitzvos would not be advisable. If they have a Shaila they can ask.

quote:

I agree that women should not be given semicha because women cannot be judges.

Shalom Abe:

Is there anything with your statement that could need to be reconciled with the historical fact that Dvora was considered a judge?


Coincidentally some months ago, an online rabbi was starting to give a shiur on Sefer Shoftim and started off by saying something to the effect of there being no difference between a judge and a king...

I tried to ask if we had the concept of a female leader, like a queen, who could lead/rule the Jewish people, but was not given the opportunity.

A rabbi higher up in the organization was consulted on this particular question. Among his responses were:

I disagree there is no indication that the shoftim had the rights and privileges of a king eg many of them clearly could not draft soldiers and workers or impose taxes

> or whatever would be the female equivalent of a Jewish King?


not per se
some explain that an agreement was made that no one would disagree with devorah
on that basis she functioned thats as close as we can get
BTW see Derashot Haran #11 on the differences between kings and judges

quote:

Teaching boys, for example, is not accepted practice

An older friend reported that in his South Bronx community, the rebetzin did teach the boys how to put on tefillin in preparation for their Bar Mitzvah.

Apprently there are things that a rebetzin can teach boys.

Probably Tzipora's stint as a mohel however is rather unique.

quote:

Originally posted by Yisroel Phillips:
You don't have to be a Rabbi to write a Sefer Torah, etc., just a man. So Gila's question remains.

Rebbe Yisroel,

Actually, why a woman cannot be a Rabbi was already stated by me, namely: "He who is obligated to learn Torah, is obligated to teach Torah."
What was said about a woman not being allowed to write Mezuzoth, Tefillin, Torah scrolls, etc., was said only to counter Mack's remark, when he said: "it doesn't change the fact that they are rebbetzin as much as they deal with some of the same issues (counselling, teaching, etc. various rebbetzin to rebbetzin) that their husbands deal with, if not more sometimes."

The fact that they give counsel, does not make them a Rabbi. A Rabbi can make up a minyan (required quorum of at least ten adult males needed to usher in divine sanctity), whereas, they could not. Neither could a woman lead the congregation in prayer. Her voice is also tantamount to nakedness when the menfolk sit down to recite Qiryas Shema.

Besides, כל כבודה בת מלך פנימה. Her place is at home, where she can (if she wants to) teach other women.

What would we say about the admonition: אל תרבה שיחה עם האשה. עם אשתו אמרו. קל וחומר אשת חברו

Still, all this is insignificant in relation to something else. Minhag Avotheinu Beyadeinu. It was never practiced in Israel to endorse a female Rabbi, unless you belong to the Reform Movement.

David

quote:

Still, all this is insignificant in relation to something else. Minhag Avotheinu Beyadeinu. It was never practiced in Israel to endorse a female Rabbi, unless you belong to the Reform Movement

That, Reb David, is what I think is the real reason.

I guess at the end of the day, the questions are "What is a Rabbi? and
What is the function of a Rabbi?
Clearly many of the functions of a Rabbi can be and are assumed by women. Ultimately it's about smicha. We don't have the tradition of giving smicha to women, therefore that basically ends the argument. In Israel, tradition is very important.

Quote "Is there anything with your statement that could need to be reconciled with the historical fact that Dvora was considered a judge?"

Tosfos in BK 15a answers that she judged not by force like a real judge, but because the participants accepted her judgement (which applies for anyone that are Pasul to be a judge) on them since the Shechina was by her.

The Bais Yosef CM 7 adds a Yerushalmi that says, she really didn't judge, but only taught the laws to others. alternatively, it was a exception from a special command from Hashem to allow her.

I might be rusty on the subject matter however the issue of he who is oligated to teach is obligated to learn. extend from the mitzvah of and you shall teach them to you sons. thus how can a father teach a child in the way of Torah if he himself do not know. that is the extent of the mitzvah.

we should know the difference between not being olbligated and prohibbited. a child is not obligated to learn torah however we send our child (male/female) to learn it.

in the same sense women are not oligated learn however in such matters we speak as though it is forbidden by the Torah which clearly it is not.


the formual of ordination was Yoreh Yoreh. Yaddin Yaddin. Yattir Yattir. (may he decide? he may decide. May he judge? he may judge. May he premit he may premit.) it has been known that all three doesn't have to be given (for give my lack of proof text)

so before we speak of davan or women voices we have to know does it really matter for a requirement to being a rabbi.

even if we say a woman place is in the home doesn't change the fact she could get semikah and stay at home.

the fact that it has never been done before doesn't mean that Halkchily it is forbidden. it was never done in israel to allow a poor enter into school who couldn't pay until Hillel arrive. after all what was a scholarship?

the concept of Thorahpat Mishpat has to deal with the matter of siting in judgement in such a state of niddah. Bracha. as well your correct in saying that some women have to work. though i was speaking of prefering in which they had a choice.

but yes even if a women was able to deal with all the issue that i mention above. at the end of the day it is custom. and one of the respobilities of a rabbi is to acknowldge the custom of the community. as such, if she is rabbi matterlial then she can acknowldge and accpet the custom of the community about female rabbis.

B"H

Gila, Mack, Rebbe Yisroel, and all our friends,

In Mishnah Eduyos (chapter 3), we find that the Sages have defined for us what is a Rabbi.

מי שיש לו תלמידים קורין אותו רבי נשתכחו תלמידיו קורין אותו רבן נשתכחו אלו ואלו קורין אותו בשמו

(Translation)

"He who has disciples is called a Rabbi; [He who has] disciples whose [names] have been forgotten is called Rabban; When both have been forgotten, they call him by his name."

In Eretz Yisroel, each Rabbi had smicha. They were called Rebbe. In Babylon where there was no smicha, they were called Rav.

Today, even without smicha, a man is called a Rabbi.

David