David,
Your post has not shed any more light. Rabbi, Rav, Rebbe as we use them today, what do they mean? Are they Hebrew, Yiddish, Aramaic or what?

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1. R. Eliezer says, one who teaches his daughter Torah, teaches her frivolity;

Rav Chaim, aren't women still supposed to learn everything that is related to their mitzva keeping. So if this is the case, why can't a woman get semicha in hilchos shabbos?

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Through a more serious question should be asked why does a woman prefer a serlcuar caeer or to be a rabbi then to be a full time mother?

Why does it have to be an either or choice?

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To dwelve too much into the subject more than what is necessary to know how to do those Mitzvos would not be advisable. If they have a Shaila they can ask.

Why isn't it advisable Rav Chaim? Why can a woman not learn a subject (of a mitzva pertaining to her) in depth so that she can answer the shaila?

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A Rabbi can make up a minyan (required quorum of at least ten adult males needed to usher in divine sanctity), whereas, they could not. Neither could a woman lead the congregation in prayer. Her voice is also tantamount to nakedness when the menfolk sit down to recite Qiryas Shema.

With all due respect, David, all this is not unique to a Rabbi, any male can make up a minyan and lead the congregation in prayer. My question was, why can't a woman be a Rabbi?

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Besides, כל כבודה בת מלך פנימה. Her place is at home, where she can (if she wants to) teach other women.

She can be a Rabbi at home too, I don't see the conflict.

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What would we say about the admonition: אל תרבה שיחה עם האשה. עם אשתו אמרו. קל וחומר אשת חבר

Again, this isn't an issue when a woman goes to a Rabbi, so why should it be an issue the other way round?

So it seems that the only reason a woman can't be a rabbi is because it wasn't done before, not for any halachic reason. Is this true?

Just to clarify what I mean when I talk about being a Rabbi: a Rabbi nowadays has 2 roles, 1) a communal role where he acts as an adviser, counsellor and spiritual guide to his congregants 2) he has the authority to answer halachic questions.

It is my understanding that a woman can fulfil role 1 and indeed there are many accepted Orthodox women who act as spiritual guides (they are known as Rebbetzins). However a woman can not get semicha and therefore she can not answer halachic questions. This was my question, why can't a woman get semicha. It seems the answer is that because it has never been done before, but that there is no halachic problem.

gila

take a look at my last post...

Avi, what he was trying to say Semkiah in it's true sense is not given any more. in fact there is no more semikah. that is in part why the rabbi today can not go against the Talmud. as say oppose to Shulchan Torah or Mishnah Torah.

the word rebbe refers to a chassdic leader who doesn't nessaryly means recieve any form of rabbinic eductation. rabbi is a title which the reform and perhaps the consertive take upon themselves. the Orthodox dilpma if you look closely says HaRav. (which david was refering to in Babliona there were no rabbi but rather ravs)


the issue well get more confusing with the current Sanhdrain which exist in Israel. but case technically if one accpets it then semkiah exist again and Adin Stein has true Semkiah in which he is no long a Rav but a Rabbi.

a good sorce for this is Ecylopida Judic which will give you the history of it and it's present day meaning.

quote:

Originally posted by Gila:
[QUOTE]1. R. Eliezer says, one who teaches his daughter Torah, teaches her frivolity;

Rav Chaim, aren't women still supposed to learn everything that is related to their mitzva keeping. So if this is the case, why can't a woman get semicha in hilchos shabbos?[/QUOTE

I've learned that there is a halacha that women shouldnt collectively learn indepth topics- and most certainly not gemora or such things as a group. However, it is not prohibited for a woman to independtly delve into the works if her heart moves her to learn. However, she most definatly focus primarly on the things that she will encounter in daily life.

I think Gila has a point that still hasn't been answered. But that point rests upon our understanding of smicha. What does it mean today? Do we even have it today? Rav Adin Steinsaltz was given smicha that was endorsed by both Rav Elyashiv and Rav Yosef. But is that smicha recognized by all? It appears the smicha itself has changed meaning through the millennia.

The bottom line is probably whether women can have authority over men. Except for Devorah and Queen Shlomzion, we don't have such a tradition. Can such a tradition change? Yes, if we have a functioning Beit Din HaGadol willing to make such a change without provoking a rebellion which will spawn a rival Beit Din HaGadol. LOL!

Here is an interesting link:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/femalerabbi.html

Gila,
You've seen or heard how men learn. They argue and scream. Even I have difficulty with it. Can you imagine women doing that and still have a good day?

B"H

Gila,

As for your question, if a woman is required to learn the Mitzvoth which pertain specifically to her, the answer is "yes."

As for your other question, "[the required quorum of 10 adult males needed to usher in sanctity] is not unique to a Rabbi, any male can make up a minyan and lead the congregation in prayer. My question was, why can't a woman be a Rabbi?"

Yes, this rationalization is not good, no more than by saying that if a person can give counsel, he too, is a Rabbi! Pirke Avoth says that a man who reaches the age of fifty is usually qualified for giving advice and counsel. בן חמש שנים למקרא, בן עשר למשנה, בן שלוש עשרה למצווה, בן חמש עשרה לתלמוד, בן שמונה עשרה לחופה, בן עשרים לרדוף, בן שלושים לכוח, בן ארבעים לבינה, בן חמשים לעצה

Now does this make them all Rabbis, simply because they are capable of giving good counsel? Of course not! The logic, here, is erroneous!

Rather, we should ask ourselves, "what is the function of a Rabbi?"

A Rabbi (according to Tosefta Eduyos, end of chapter three) has the function of raising disciples. And why would he want to raise disciples? In order to instruct them in the Law of Moses. Yet, who is obligated to learn Torah? The sons of Israel. And who is obligated to teach Torah? Those who were obligated to learn Torah.

Moreover, one of the functions of a Rabbi is to serve as an example to others. How can a woman serve as an example when she would be required to stand aloof from the congregation most of the time?! She could not make up the required quorum, nor could she lead the congregation in prayer. And if her voice should be heard while reciting Qiryas Shema, the men would have to either stop up their ears, or run out of the building!

As for the title "Rebbetzin" which has been given to certain women, it is only nominal. The name only implies that she is married to a Rabbi.

David

Quote "Rav Chaim, aren't women still supposed to learn everything that is related to their mitzva keeping."

That is only a rudimentary understanding of the Halachas, like to be able to function day to day. In depth learning is not for woman, as I explained from Shas and Shulchon Orech, see the whole of my earlier post.

A general question, not to anybody in particular.

What do you think about the movie "Yentl"? Honestly, it seems to me that the whole approach to keeping women from learning is not very honest. It was okay in the Middle Ages when it was "common sense" dictated by the male-dominated society that a woman was considered inferior to a man, and the woman's only job was to raise children and be a good wife - which are extremely important roles, by the way. Also, a person dominated by mood swings would make an even worse parent and spouse than judge: I would not want a moody mother for my children: a house dominated by PMS cycles is a recipe for disaster and neurotic children. So do we trust her judgment in the day-to-day raising of children, but not her judgment in who owes whom what and how to clean the house of khametz?

Today the paradigm has changed. Women are working in the same jobs as men are - and raising children, and being good wives (well, most of them, anyway )

I think it was in the mid-1990s that the first woman Rabbi received semichah from Orthodox yeshiva in NYC.

So, should woman be allowed to become a Rabbi, or should she, like Yentl, pretend to be a man until she has to tell the truth?

After all, Rashi did teach his daughters everything he knew - in the Middle Ages, by the way...

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the mid-1990s that the first woman Rabbi received semichah from Orthodox yeshiva

Are you sure about this fact? Which yeshiva?

Regarding Rashi, from Berel Wein's video it seems that the daughters' learning was kind of incidental to the fact that they helped with the manual copying over of his books.

Quote "What do you think about the movie "Yentl"?"

The movie is fiction, like Star wars. Not really something to bring a proof from.

Quote "Today the paradigm has changed. Women are working in the same jobs as men are - and raising children, and being good wives"

Very subjective statement.

Quote "I think it was in the mid-1990s that the first woman Rabbi received semichah from Orthodox yeshiva in NYC."

Not anyplace mainstream Orthodox. If it's true, it would be a real extreme leftist one, which had partially left the fold.

Quote "Honestly, it seems to me that the whole approach to keeping women from learning is not very honest."

That's according to today's new vogue "truths." As I pointed out in my previous post that the president of Harvard was thrown out for suggesting that woman think differently than men. The leftist faculty felt that he can't say such things and be "honest" and "truthful", so they got rid of him. (The president, remember, was also a liberal, and was in the cabinet of Clinton.) This concept also caused a surprise in the Time magazine when they reported that men and woman could be different.

So, I don't think it's honest to throw in political correct ideas into Torah. We would like to think everybody is the same no matter what. Gender and race can not have anything to do with it and if someone even suggest it, it must be shot down because it's not being politically "intellectually honest." But for Torah Jews, we are not affected by the moments political correctness.

the truth is what Avi D'Israeli said is correct. the truth is there is nothing that stop her under Jewish Law.

David Ben-Abraham. by your standards women should not hold position in jewish insitiution to teach as a matter of fact you are against orthodox yeshiva that teach torah to women. so my question is are you questioning these Orthodox yeshiva?

as far as you are obligated to teach your sons. anyone who knows hebrew know that when it speaks in pluar it takes the mascline. as such one could aruge when it says benim it means sons and daughters. otherwise it could have simply wrote you shall teach your son.

a rabbi is an example and she is an example by her deeds and teachings she reveals to the world. which is no different then any male rabbi. a rabbi job is not to lead services nor is it to make a quoram that is for every jewish male job to fulfill. the only reason why a male rabbi does it is because he is a male not because he recicve the tittle HaRav.

Rav Chaim. even if we say the Shulchan Aruch says such a thing we have to know the rational behind it. for isn't that the greatest fear of many of the rabbi was people follow the shulchan Aruch and not know the rational behind it's ruling therefore they would error in judgement. as much what of the 365 mitzvot prevent a women from learn torah indepth?

rob,
it is a known fact rashi taught is daughters talmud and they were very knowldgable in the subject matter. now if a film reduce them to learning it by some mishap one should question the vaildness of the film be all facts.

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Originally posted by Mack K:

David Ben-Abraham,
...As far as you are obligated to teach your sons, anyone who knows Hebrew knows that when it speaks in plural it takes the masculine. As such, one could argue when it says "benim" [that] it means sons and daughters. Otherwise, it could have simply wrote you shall teach your son.

Mack,

The Talmud brings down the same pasuk ולמדתם אותם לבניכם (Velimadtem Osam livneichem) to teach us that women must not wear Tefillin, or write Tefillin, Mezuzoth, Torah scrolls &c. (By the way, Michal, the daughter of King Saul, was an exception to this rule, and used to don Tefillin.)

So, are you saying that we should now accommodate for women doing these things? If so, you're advocating change in our Torah and in our oral-traditions for something that "fits the whims" of secular society! Would this be right?

David

QUote "Rav Chaim. even if we say the Shulchan Aruch says such a thing we have to know the rational behind it. for isn't that the greatest fear of many of the rabbi was people follow the shulchan Aruch and not know the rational behind it's ruling therefore they would error in judgement. as much what of the 365 mitzvot prevent a women from learn torah indepth?

The rational is quite clear in Shulchon orech and how I explained it. Being a Rabbi is not part of the Mitzvos, it's a result of having Mitzvos you need someone to teach and Paskin. It's logical (thus we don't need a verse, Svarah He, Kra Lama Lee) that the Rabbi must be competent in rendering Halachos. Adding the "woman touch" to the Halacha could change the Halacha. Thus it's better not to get them involved, and that's the simple rational behind it.

now David, the whims of secular society has never been my concern for what vaild is there. as far as to these matter forgive me if i bow out and not answer this question in this post for i want to be sure in what I am about to say regarding such matters.

Rav Chaim What is a woman touch to Halacha would be considered?

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Originally posted by rob:

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the mid-1990s that the first woman Rabbi received semichah from Orthodox yeshiva

Are you sure about this fact? Which yeshiva?

It was on TV in mid-90s (I forgot what year); she even gave an interview. I am not sure if she was able to find a job as an Orthodox Rabbi though...

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Regarding Rashi, from Berel Wein's video it seems that the daughters' learning was kind of incidental to the fact that they helped with the manual copying over of his books.

Incidental or not, they did learn from him. And I am sure they did ask questions related to what they were rewriting.