the converstation of it begans in bavli Sotah 21b with Ben Azzai leading the converstation. R' Elizer coments and the rest of that part goes on to support Ben Azzai on teaching women torah. In my last post to you I sumurize what the text was saying.


Since i can not recall the matter of Chasid in it's place in the Talmud nevermind for either it is not there or i just can't seem to recall the area.

this is the first step acknowldging women can be rabbis. the next issue is what role can they play. as well once we cross this area what other area will we end up crossing because we cross this one.

quote:

Originally posted by David Ben-Abraham:


Speaking on a more serious note, what do you think of Rabbi Aberjel's view of female Rabbis?

David

B'H
(sometimes I think that means behave)

Yes, it was only a joke.


I think Rabbi Aberjel made some good points, but I am concerned about what Rav Chaim just posted. Especially, about Rav Meir's wife. Did Rabbi Aberjel know of any untitled female rabbis? There certainly are some very knowledgeable and wise women who should be respected for that, and that may be all that Rabbi Aberjel was saying. Learning Talmud seems to be very difficult, and requires alot of time and dedication. I tend to learn things by word of mouth. For a woman to become a Talmid, she would have to sit in a Yeshiva day in and day out with a bunch of men, which would be uncomfortable for most women. Unless they had Yeshivas for women, I just don't see it happening. But I do believe that women have the capacity for abstract thought. I mean, look at all the women who become Doctors and Lawyers and such, every day. Is learning Talmud any different? The real question is do women have the same capacity to deal with spiritual issues as men do. I know of several men who are more concerned about their clothes and their homes than I am, so I don't think it is fair to make a blanket statement that that is all women think about. I believe that some women have the gift of prophecy and should be listened to. But people make mistakes, too. So no-one can always be relied on. Even Miriam the prophetess had a problem with Lashon Hara, so she could not always be relied on. Women are weaker than men, but sometimes Hashem uses them in glorious ways. Getting back to the Garden of Eden, after all that had gone on there the Man was given authority over the woman. So that is how it usually should be. But all authority is given by Hashem, so if He decides to give it to a woman then that is His perogative. I heard that in the end of times that Hashem would give women authority over men. I don't know how true that is now a days, since I am unsure what time we are living in. But if there is a woman who pleases Hashem and he gives her authority and makes miracles happen around her, and makes it so noone can do anything without her then she would be better than a rabbi. Perhaps an untitled queen, or the Rose of Sharon type, such as in the Song of Songs. It's possible, nothing is impossible with G-d.
There are many other great things that women can do besides learning and teaching Talmud. I am not a reader, so I would never be a good Talmid. They are only instructions, so if a woman fills her life learning instructions and never applies them to reality what good has she accomplished?

the point of learning torah is to fulfill this is true but it is also learning for the sake of learning. for what other reasons do we study and have study the inner workings of the beit HaMidask. or the laws dealing with the Kohenim when many are not Kohenim. for in these matter we learn soley for the sake of learning.

Raybin perhaps you would have like the olden days when learning Talmud was not picking up a volume of Talmud and learning but rather converstaion as we are having here and now. after all what is Talmud in it's essence.

There various yeshiva where women can attend, if married there have been cases where both goes to the same yeshiva however one to the male yeshiva the other to the women yeshiva. i have not heard of a yeshiva that course is gear the same way as men course are. however i have seen some where i would prefered to go to theirs. they get to learn Ein Yacov, Chumash, Navi, Halackah, and various other things.

a woman spiritaul capcity various woman to woman.if we look closely i am sure as we find fault in all the women of praise in the Tankh we could find fault in the men. for moshe lost his temper and struck the rock. when he clearly heard the heavenly voice say speak to it. surely we do not say how can we rely upon somone who had such a close connection with HaShem yet disobey the divine will. HaShem forbid we say such a thing.

as much do not forget Aaron her brother who was a Kohen Godol died if i recall correctly for the same reason she marrim died. so please let us end finding fault in these women of valor who served HaShem according to their abilities.

surely we do not say how can we rely upon somone who had such a close connection with HaShem yet disobey the divine will. HaShem forbid we say such a thing.
so please let us end finding fault in these women of valor who served HaShem according to their abilities.[/QUOTE]

Sorry. OK. Then I won't find fault in myself, either, who also serves HaShem according to my abilities. It's not easy. Thanks.

We also learned "Gadol m'Rabban Sheman" Just being called Hillel or Shamai without the title is greater (in their cases and in other zuggos cases) than the tile "Rav, Rebbe or Rabban." The title is not so important. I think the real issue is k'vod hatzibbur. For a woman to stand up at the pulpit in shul and speak in front of everyone during davening times and to appear in the men's section entails a certain lack of tzniyus and k'vod hatzibbur. As far as women learning Torah we have the example of R. Meir's wife, Bruriyah, who learned a tremendous amount of Torah and had a wealth of Torah knowledge. No one in the Gemara told her: "Stick to what you have to know as a woman." She appears to have been greatly admired for her independent Torah knowledge and she often gave men mussar for not knowing enough or being careful enough.

quote:

Originally posted by Mack K:

Raybin perhaps you would have like the olden days when learning Talmud was not picking up a volume of Talmud and learning but rather converstaion as we are having here and now. after all what is Talmud in it's essence.

Yes, I would like that. Actually, all things considered who would rather occupy their time studying to be a doctor or lawyer, etc than to study Torah and Talmud? If given a choice, even women would rather study Torah and Talmud. So I can see why some women want to be rabbis. It seems that we could use those women in some capacity.

I think Rabbi Meir's wife was ahead of her time, and that is why she felt shame. It wasn't too long ago that it was unheard of for women to attend Yeshiva or for that matter to learn Talmud. So the doors have really opened up to women in Judaism in recent years. Who knows what will be next?

The important points have already been gone over, but just to address a matter that a few people have brought up:

As to what Adam's motives were for eating the apple, we don't have to guess as to whether or not he did it innocently. G-d knew his motive. That is why G-d sent both him and his wife out of the Garden of Eden. If his motive had been pure, G-d would not have done that.

By the way, I am exceptionally impressed at the open minds everyone is showing. I am not your mother, but permit me to say I am proud of you!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Paulette:

As to what Adam's motives were for eating the apple, we don't have to guess as to whether or not he did it innocently. G-d knew his motive. That is why G-d sent both him and his wife out of the Garden of Eden. If his motive had been pure, G-d would not have done that.


I disagree. Whether or not his motive was pure they were expelled because they ate of the fruit that they were commanded not to.

Paulette,

Are you saying that if Adam's motive had been pure he would not have eaten the fruit?

quote:

Originally posted by Sam K:
As far as women learning Torah we have the example of R. Meir's wife, Bruriyah, who learned a tremendous amount of Torah and had a wealth of Torah knowledge. No one in the Gemara told her: "Stick to what you have to know as a woman." She appears to have been greatly admired for her independent Torah knowledge and she often gave men mussar for not knowing enough or being careful enough.

Sam,

I feel that some points must be clarified here concerning Bruria and women learning Talmud.

1. While we see that there are Yichidim that have the ability to learn Gemorah and can argue in the manner that yeshiva men do, the majority of women are not able to appreciate the style and approach to Torah that is laid down for us in the Babylonian Talmud.

2. Bruria was a tremendous tzinua on a level that I don't believe that most if not all the Nashim Tzedkanius of today could come close to. For example, a Talmid of hers (male) once said, "Shalom Alechem Rebbe!" (not sure on the exact words used). She ranked him out for using two extra words. He should have said, "Shalom" and that's it! The other two words were Chozer Tznius in her opinion! {Tough Rebbe!} Also, she gave shiur behind a curtain so as not to be gazed upon. {I'd like to see how many women that are adamit about becoming a Rabbi would uphold such hanhagas}

3. Rebbe Meir and Bruria were always in a machlokes about women teaching Talmud. Unfortunately, he turned out to be right as you will soon see.

4. Rebbe Meir was of the opinion that women learning/teaching Talmud would create an envirionment that would be Chozer Tznius and cause a great Kilkul in Klal Yisrael. To prove his point he convinced one of his Talmidim to entice her. She almost gave in at one point and this was made aware of to Rebbe Meir. Whem Bruria found out that her husband Rebbe Meir knew about the incident, she killed herself.


So what do we learn from all that is brought down in the Talmud?

Here we have a woman who's tzius was very great, who's actions were L'Shem Shamiyim, and non-the-less she almost transgressed the Issur of Eishes Ish; not to mention that she killed herself in the end. If that is what happened to such a great person as Bruria, who's the fool who thinks that she is above Bruria?

Chazal clearly state that if a person says, "I will pass by the river (the shorter route) and won't looks as the ladies lift their skirts and sleeves in order to wash clothes", he is called a Rasha even if he doesn't look. We are not allowed to place ourselves in a situation where we may sin.

You actually hit the nose on the button when you said, "...entails a certain lack of tzniyus and k'vod hatzibbur." This is Chazal's main concern when they paskined that women should not learn Talmud.

As far as Paulette's most recent statement, I tend to agree with her. Everything that's needed to be said has been said.

Magedman

" If that is what happened to such a great person as Bruria, who's the fool who thinks that she is above Bruria? "

Probably burned at the stake!
I suppose I was having grandiose delusions when I said it was possible to have a woman who was better than a rabbi. I let my imagination get carried away.

What seems to have made Bruria a great person was her love of and study of Talmud?



You actually hit the nose on the button when you said, "...entails a certain lack of tzniyus and k'vod hatzibbur." This is Chazal's main concern when they paskined that women should not learn Talmud.[/QUOTE]

If Chazal paskined that women should not learn Talmud, then why do they allow women to do it, and why are there Yeshivas for women?

quote:

Originally posted by Magedman:

Chazal clearly state that if a person says, "I will pass by the river (the shorter route) and won't looks as the ladies lift their skirts and sleeves in order to wash clothes", he is called a Rasha even if he doesn't look. We are not allowed to place ourselves in a situation where we may sin.

You actually hit the nose on the button when you said, "...entails a certain lack of tzniyus and k'vod hatzibbur."

Magedman

In other professions women have constant contact with men. Such as nursing and women doctors, women college professors and women lawyers. Why would being a woman rabbi be any more tempting? It seems that the study of Talmud between men and women would be an antidote to temptation because there would always be constant reminders in the teachings that lust is wrong. Or does that make it more tempting sometimes? Are women considered to be a distraction from serious study?

Maybe the women who want to learn Talmud should start a woman's Talmud. Instead of quoting men it would be quoting women, and discussing women's issues. That could be a solution.

These women who want their lives to be focased on Judaism should be offered careers. Why should they have only to choose between secular careers? There should be something for these dedicated women to do in Judaism. I am not undermining being a wife and raising a Jewish family and all of the things that create Shalom Bayim. But why should they be forced to work in the secular world?

The key, I think, is to create Jobs for Jewish women within Judaism, that don't compete with men. To create unique roles for these women who want to study and work hard should be a priority.

Quote ". As far as women learning Torah we have the example of R. Meir's wife, Bruriyah, who learned a tremendous amount of Torah and had a wealth of Torah knowledge. No one in the Gemara told her: "Stick to what you have to know as a woman."

But the point was that she was the exception, as we brought down from the Mishna in Sotah and Shulchon Orech. Even Bruryah didn't end up unscathed, as per the Gemarah in Avodah Zarah 18b a brought down in an earlier post.

In response to the question "Can women be Rabbis", can't one also ask "Can a man be pregnant"? The answer is that is the way Hashem created each of us - for a purpose!

Raybin,

You've brought out several points that need to be addressed. I will try to find the time after Pesach to address them, Bli Neder. Until then, Chag Sameach!

Magedman

let's say a woman can become a rabbi what would be the roles she could fulfill?

for we have already acknowldge that though it is not prefed there is no prohobition and the example is Buraiah then there is Dvorah, Samuel mother yes these were exceptional women. but it as acknowldge that these women who were exceptional wouldn't go against Torah as such them learning such matters surely can not be prohibited.

I don't know the story of Buraiah however the way you all tell it as though she was tempted however she did not act on it. which is rather a matter of true strength. further what does that say for her husband to put her in such a position for surely he proformed a negative mistvah of puting a stumbling block before his wife. or the student (who happens to be male) who strove to Suddeuce her. and yet we call such a person R'...

quote:

but it as acknowldge that these women who were exceptional wouldn't go against Torah as such them learning such matters surely can not be prohibited.

It's not forbidden for those who are exceptional, which it seems comes around every millinium or so.

quote:

then there is Dvorah, Samuel mother

Chana was Shmuel's mother

quote:

I don't know the story of Buraiah however the way you all tell it as though she was tempted however she did not act on it

It was only after the student revealed himself

quote:

further what does that say for her husband to put her in such a position for surely he proformed a negative mistvah of puting a stumbling block before his wife.

First, he would prevent it from happening (though the Gemarah in Kiddushin says that for the intention would also be L'fnei Eiver. But the main reason was that Brurya was making light of the Rabbi's words about women (which other PC minded people these days also like to claim) which would be detrimental to their Yidishkeit if people would neglect the sages and make up their own PC type Shitos. Thus Rebbe Meir needed to prove above all that the words of the sages are correct and shouldn't be challenged by others.

I could not go through all the posts - all those feminist claims, and their apologetic answers are a headache.
Can someone define the problem???

quote:

Originally posted by Sam-:
In response to the question "Can women be Rabbis", can't one also ask "Can a man be pregnant"? The answer is that is the way Hashem created each of us - for a purpose!

sure one can ask that question but why would one?!
smile