quote:

And that perhaps their delays in implementation of requested mechitza that multiple religious attendees would seem to want might actually be a worse insult than an honest expression of an improper shock reaction to something misinterpreted to have been non-Jewish.

I remain curious how you can be certain that the delay of implementation of a mechitza is less bad than what you had to endure being shunned due to your style of head covering.

I am not certain it is worse, I am only asking.

OK, THIS is more clear to me now. Hmmmm. Perhaps. I frankly haven't thought of the situation inthat light, and I am not sure of the answer, except to say that I still have impressionable young girls to think of. They HATED the way we were treated (they still cringe when we talk about going for events held there). I just found it distasteful.

As to your other suggestion--(which was nothing if not creative!) about having the Rabbi speak to them and possibly perform act of solidarity--well... I can't see that doing anything more than further...ticking them off. Not a good way to introduce ones' self.

WHichever of the two is a worse toleration, I am certain that driving a bad taste into the mouths of the girls and sealing forever a bad opinion of that Shul, would certainly outweigh them both, don't you think?

quote:

Originally posted by Yocheved Broscova-Guerra:

The quotes you gave me are legitimate, but if you look at their contexts, it appears both were refering to specific woman and then a specific group of women. Neither of whom had the books, time nor resources to become educated--so frankly, if you took my books, resources, and study time away from me and all the other women YES, you would have light-minded women as we would have nothing to do but to tend (people and animals) and with nothing else to focus on in daily life...what choice would there be but to be light-minded? There would be nothing else to talk about tending. So in that context, I suppose that would be true. But then, so it would be true of the gentlemen as well.

Yocheved,

I think we should be careful and not allow ourselves to fall into the trappings of some, who think that by an education in public schools, or in higher institutions, or even by reading many books, this will help them change their demeanor, disposition or character make-up. It might help a little. But good education begins mostly in the home, by being taught verbally by one's parents, and especially by being shown a good-example from one's parents, grandparents, etc. This is irrelevant to whether one studied books or not. How many times have I met nice, old Jewish men and women who never knew how to read or write, yet were they the most kind-hearted, and best of souls that could ever be!

"Light-mindedness," I think, is more of an inherent trait in women, rather than something brought on by lack of schooling, just as other traits may be universally acknowledged to be common with men. It's like saying in Hebrew, כרחם אב על בנים , "as a father is compassionate towards his children;" a trait singled out to be common with most men. On the other hand, a mother is "comforting" or "consoling" (Heb. מנחמת) to her children.

With deepest respect,
David Ben-Abraham

Shalom,

Just as food for thought...

Specifically in reference to Rav Chaim's remarks that women have biologically mandated, mental tendancies--"PMS [and] other mood swings"--that render them incapable of dispensing sound advice and rulings, let me remind of you the overarching effects of the male labido on objectivity. In my experience (and History bears out this fact), the actions of men are more influenced by their biology than those of women, especially with regard to matters of the opposite sex. Men think about sex, on average, MUCH more frequently than women, and are certainly subject to shifts in personality, and sometimes behavior, accordingly. This arguement that women cannot act as Rabbis because of hormonal or other 'uniquely feminine' attributes just doesn't hold water--at the very least, is should be leveled against the male gender as well.

quote:

Originally posted by Yocheved Broscova-Guerra:

quote:

Originally posted by sharachana:

quote:
Originally posted by Sam-:
In response to the question "Can women be Rabbis", can't one also ask "Can a man be pregnant"? The answer is that is the way Hashem created each of us - for a purpose!

sure one can ask that question but why would one?!
smile

I don't think that is appropriate as an analogy.

Everyone's entitled to my opinion

Neither do I , that is why I posted that response.
I am entitled to your opinion on this one too! Ha!

Quote "Men think about sex, on average, MUCH more frequently than women, and are certainly subject to shifts in personality, and sometimes behavior, accordingly. This argument that women cannot act as Rabbis because of hormonal or other 'uniquely feminine' attributes just doesn't hold water--"

I think you're comparing apples to oranges. I don't think that what you claim are men's main biological thoughts are something that is going to affect his thinking while he's learning and will make him make a mistake in his Svaros, besides, that at that moment, he's not thinking or is active in that action, and the Torah is keeping his thoughts concentrated on it and not on other things (more later on this.) But a woman cannot control their chemical mood swings at all, especially cannot pick their spots to stop their mood swings.

Quote "my experience (and History bears out this fact), the actions of men are more influenced by their biology than those of women,"

I don't know who you are and what your experience or who's history your referring to, but my experience is the opposite. Those that are head and most of themselves in the Torah are not as one track mind in the other activity (as the Rambam says.) It puts our energy in positive things, like trying to master Torah, so that those thoughts are less prevalent and we have a more mature look at it.

Thank you for your response, Rav Chaim.

As a scientist, I do not know of the specific "chemical" mood-hormones that you refer to; please let me know their names. Yes, women are subject to hormonal shifts during menstration, but as I intimated, men are subject to hormonal shifts as well.

Testosterone, which is present at much, much higher levels in men than in women, is a pontent hormone, whose permanent influence (24 hours a day, 365 days a year) on the male thought process cannot be underestimated. I do not think I have to make you aware of the effects of testosterone on world history--namely, the characteristically male inclination for violence. Put simply, the more testosterone in a person's system, the higher their propensity for violence (and I cannot furnish scientific findings which speak to this).

Now, here is a chemical whose effects have been plainly demonstrated to affect reason and judgement. Consider how an overabudance of the hormone in the human body triggers fits of rage (e.g., the steroid user).

Rav, my argument is not that men and women are the same. Of course they're not. I am just taking issue with your claim that the hormone's present in women affect their abilities to think rationally more than those present in men. Simply, both sexes are subject to influence of hormones.

This is not "apples and oranges". I am presenting, within the parameters of the scientific (chemical) arguement which you invoked, a case for an equally adverse, hormonal effect on male judgement. And with regards to a rabbi's ability to think 'above the influence of hormones', how can you say that the high levels of testoterone in a male's body have no effect?

Are you suggesting that this biological tendancy in men has no bearing on their ability to rule on matters objectively? I can think of many hypothetical scenarios where testoterone could (and readily does) affect objectivity (beyond sexual-mindedness).

Rav, I am uncomfortable too with the concept of females Rabbis...because our halacha forbids it. Supporting that halacha with selective scientific claims (which are readily disputable) is a troubling exercise.

quote:

Testosterone, which is present at much, much higher levels in men than in women, is a pontent hormone, whose permanent influence (24 hours a day, 365 days a year) on the male thought process cannot be underestimated. I do not think I have to make you aware of the effects of testosterone on world history--namely, the characteristically male inclination for violence. Put simply, the more testosterone in a person's system, the higher their propensity for violence (and I cannot furnish scientific findings which speak to this).

quote:

Testosterone, which is present at much, much higher levels in men than in women, is a pontent hormone, whose permanent influence (24 hours a day, 365 days a year) on the male thought process cannot be underestimated. I do not think I have to make you aware of the effects of testosterone on world history--namely, the characteristically male inclination for violence. Put simply, the more testosterone in a person's system, the higher their propensity for violence (and I cannot furnish scientific findings which speak to this).

Correction: I meant to write I CAN furnish scientific papers and evidence that speak to this. Sorry.

quote:

Testosterone, which is present at much, much higher levels in men than in women

By whatever scientific method has measured these testosterone levels, do they measure instantaneous levels, if they tend to change quickly, such as when one's mind is occupied with Torah learning, per what Rav Chaim has told us? or perhaps right at a time when one has satisfied their cravings?

Or perhaps this method has measured more of a general systemic general exposure level?

I am no scientist; my doctorate work is in the humanities, but I do agree with you. Both of teh genders are subjected to hormonal issues. I will say that it is unfair to say that either of the sexes are "less or more" affected than the other. The argument could be made that men are subjected more CONSISTENTLY by their hormones (although that is not entirely accurate), whereas women get that extra surge on a monthly basis (if they are of childbearing age). However, that also would leave room for the argument:

If a man has a regular surge of testosterone to deal with and a woman only has to deal with the "clouding of one's reason" once per month, then wouldn't women be better off than men? Conversely, one could argue that since people typically would not know WHEN that moment would occur, then they would naturally be viewed as more unpredictable. So, we are both slain in the argument.

The analysis would then fall to this conclusion (to my mind):

The mind must be discipline to overcome all obstacles between it and G-d, chemical or otherwise. All could be viewed as temptations to behave in an unkosher (classical definition: fit or proper) things.

Some people are better at controling and disciplining themselves than others. I personally have never been given to such emotional unpheaval, but I know many who are and seem to truly suffer some hormonal imbalance.

I agree with you once again, Yocheved. However, like I said, I find myself also aligned with halacha (the orthodox perspective) when it comes to female rabbis. For whatever reason, our laws dictate that only men can be Rabbis, and I cannot dispute that. I know we might disagree on this point (as orthodox and conservative Jews often do), but it is just my desire to preserve those laws, even if I sometimes take issue with them.

That said, for me, females have been the most influential, effective teachers of Judaism. It was the insight and wisdom of females that lead me to become a baal teshuva, and female coaching and instruction that ultimately kept me on the right derech. We learn from the Torah that females are in fact on a higher spirtial plane than men, in a sense, closer to that divine force. And although they cannot become rabbis, their scholarly insight should be placed right along with that of men.

quote:

Originally posted by Chaim5739:
We learn from the Torah that females are in fact on a higher spirtial plane than men, in a sense, closer to that divine force.

Chaim, Shalom!

Could you please show me in the Torah where we learn this?

Sincerely,
David Ben-Abraham

Don't be irritated, David, it is taught prolificly. As I said, every Rabbi I have ever known has said this in these or similar words.

Chaim:

I don't have an understanding for why the Halacha has mandated this. But oddly, I have far less trouble accepting it on a personal level (that is, I don't struggle philosophically).

It seems appropriate for women to serve as supporters. G-d has given many women a great dose of patience and endurance that is necessary in a support role. Moreover, supporters are as essential to leaders as the leaders are to supporters. Anyway, Ha Sh-m laid enough upon us (women) work-wise to keep us busy until we just cannot go on. Why add to the bundle? Isn't it hard enough to be a proper teacher to the children?

I am permitted to study to my heart's content, (which is insatiable). That is all I have ever asked. I feel very grateful.

quote:

I find myself also aligned with halacha (the orthodox perspective) when it comes to female rabbis. For whatever reason, our laws dictate that only men can be Rabbis, and I cannot dispute that. I know we might disagree on this point (as orthodox and conservative Jews often do), but it is just my desire to preserve those laws, even if I sometimes take issue with them.

There is no disagreement. I will never refute anything to be proven Halacha. It says what it says, and I for one will not willingly or knowingly do anything contrary to it and call it "permissable".

quote:

Originally posted by David Ben-Abraham:

quote:

Originally posted by Chaim5739:
We learn from the Torah that females are in fact on a higher spirtial plane than men, in a sense, closer to that divine force.

Chaim, Shalom!

Could you please show me in the Torah where we learn this?

Possibly from from Sarah Imeinu and Rivkah Imeinu. Hashem told Avraham to listen to Sarah (in regard to Yishmael) and Rivkah set it up so that Ya'akov would get the Bracha from Yitzchak instead of Esav. Both, therefore, seemed to have had a higher degree of Nevua than their husbands.

I have heard it said that Sarah Imenu was a greater prophet than Avraham Avinu. This may have been part of an explanation of this pasuk, and certainly in proximity. I am not sure of the proof for the statement.

I have also heard it said that Sarah was able to see a clear vision of Yitzchok raised up at the Akeida, after which she died.

QUOTE FROM EARLIER POST BY YOCHEVED:

EVERY Rabbi I have ever been taught by (without exception) has taught that women naturally posess a connection with HaShem if for no other reason than because we 'hold hands with with Him' when we give birth, taking part in creation. Yes, discernment is also listed, along with intuitiveness (as a proof of this).

MIND YOU THERE ARE ALWAYS EXCEPTIONS TO THOSE WHO EXPLORE AND NURTURE THIS ADVANTAGE,(as there are to men.)

Even on Chabad.Org you can watch a very fine Orthodox Rabbi discuss this via video clip (about five minutes long) under the video "Tefillin". He discusses the fact tha women don't have to wear tefillin because they naturally posess a connection with G-d that men must work to achieve and also to maintain.
END QUOTE

There must be a body of work on this, else it would not be repeated so consistently. Especially since it is THE REASON given by Rabbis for which women are not required to do the above-mentioned things.

Shalom, David,

Just consider the pivotal role played by all the matriarchs in the Torah. Miriam was seen as a leader of the Jewish people!! Even a cursory reading of Torah reveals that women have the capacity to lead, teach and usher in G-d's will to Earth.

Further Reading:
http://www.chabad.org/theJewishWoman/article.asp?AID=313387
http://www.chabad.org/theJewishWoman/article.asp?AID=338925