quote "What is the "covenant eyes" program? "

I think it's a program that a friend gets a list of all the sites you go to so that you shouldn't be tempted to go to a site that you shouldn't be going to.

I think youa re correct. I don't have all the information on it, but this website endorses their services, and that is good enough for me. This is the most closely watched website I have ever been to, and for that I am grateful. It is too dangerous out there. I am very, very careful when and how often the girls are allowed to use the computer. They use Chabad.org without restriction, and that would be another website to look into as far as set-up of a new site is concerned. They already know how to make it completely kosher, why try to re-blaze the trail when we can follow in the footsteps of great men?

That's a great idea. Thank you both for the information. I would rather the site be endorsed by a whole spectrum of Jewish organizations, such as Aish, Chabad, Torah.org, JewsforJudaism, etc. That way, prospective xtian converts will see a united Jewish front of concern for their well-being. And if there is one thing all of the various Jewish organizations can agree on, it is a profound disdain for missioning xtians. Perhaps that will be the rallying point that finally brings Jews togeher!

Oh, and by the way, Rav Chaim, Yocheved, have a wonderful, wonderful Shabbos. Thank you both so much for your insight and support.

Always.

quote:

all of the various Jewish organizations can agree on, it is a profound disdain for missioning xtians.

So how would you feel about a Jewish public personality getting rather close with very public evangelical goyim who don't distance themselves from missionizing... and calling such an evangelical "pregnant with love for the Jewish people"?

That doesn't sound like disdain to me.

I think the question is: how do they show that love?

I know MANY christians and they are ALL "pregnant with love for Jews." The problem is that SINCE THEY LOVE US SO MUCH, THEY WANT US TO BECOME CHRISTIANS!

If you recall, the reason the Spanish Inquisition was so motivated was because they were all "moved by love" to make us all "see the light". They didn't mind torchering our bodies for a WHILE, so they could save our sould from hell "later".

Don't get me wrong, as far as political allies, christians may well be the best friends we have. But let us NOT make the mistake of thinking that political relationship extends to a spiritual ally, because when all the fluff is taken away, you still have a person who wants to CONVERT us. They (by their own definition) would not be good christians if they DIDN'T want to convert us. Any group that tries to "enlighten" our old and lonely people by trying to convert them out of Judaism is a group not to embrace too closely. Period.

I am sure there are exceptions, but let us remember that they are exceptions. I did my undergraduate studies in a private christian university (best option, I thought, at the time) and it was the most difficult time of my life. I learned very quickly what the concensus was on Jews, and toleration of lack of belief is not on the list of attributes in general.

My experience was this: The more educated the professor, the less problems I had. But for the other several thousand christians there, I may as well have had a target painted on my back. It was NOT pleasant. I do not consider them to be "full of love for Jews". I see them as decent people on the whole who believe Jews are sweet, but wholly misguided people who must be shown the way. That is NOT how one shows true love for another group of people.

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but you have NO IDEA what I went through (and still go through) being an observant Jew, solelyu at the hand of "christianity's best".

I support Chaim's idea. And frankly, if a more proactive approach is taken, (whatever that needs to be) we will be culpable for the loss of many of our people away from Torah (G-d forbid).

CORRECTION: If a more proactive approach ISN'T taken, we will be culpable...etc.

quote:

Originally posted by rob:

quote:

all of the various Jewish organizations can agree on, it is a profound disdain for missioning xtians.

So how would you feel about a Jewish public personality getting rather close with very public evangelical goyim who don't distance themselves from missionizing... and calling such an evangelical "pregnant with love for the Jewish people"?

That doesn't sound like disdain to me.

Hi Rob,

I'm afraid to ask, but what public Jewish personality made that quote? That is truly frightening.

quote:

Originally posted by Yocheved Broscova-Guerra:
I think the question is: how do they show that love?

I know MANY christians and they are ALL "pregnant with love for Jews." The problem is that SINCE THEY LOVE US SO MUCH, THEY WANT US TO BECOME CHRISTIANS!

If you recall, the reason the Spanish Inquisition was so motivated was because they were all "moved by love" to make us all "see the light". They didn't mind torchering our bodies for a WHILE, so they could save our sould from hell "later".

Don't get me wrong, as far as political allies, christians may well be the best friends we have. But let us NOT make the mistake of thinking that political relationship extends to a spiritual ally, because when all the fluff is taken away, you still have a person who wants to CONVERT us. They (by their own definition) would not be good christians if they DIDN'T want to convert us. Any group that tries to "enlighten" our old and lonely people by trying to convert them out of Judaism is a group not to embrace too closely. Period.

I am sure there are exceptions, but let us remember that they are exceptions. I did my undergraduate studies in a private christian university (best option, I thought, at the time) and it was the most difficult time of my life. I learned very quickly what the concensus was on Jews, and toleration of lack of belief is not on the list of attributes in general.

My experience was this: The more educated the professor, the less problems I had. But for the other several thousand christians there, I may as well have had a target painted on my back. It was NOT pleasant. I do not consider them to be "full of love for Jews". I see them as decent people on the whole who believe Jews are sweet, but wholly misguided people who must be shown the way. That is NOT how one shows true love for another group of people.

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but you have NO IDEA what I went through (and still go through) being an observant Jew, solelyu at the hand of "christianity's best".

Yocheved,

I have had similar negative experiences with xtians, but none so severe. However, it's a major irritant for our people everywhere.

Rob makes a good point. I should not generalize. There are some Jews who do not see the danger in opening a dialogue with xtians, or allowing them such a hefty stake in Israeli politics.

We need to walk the line between inspiring hatred for xtianity, and educating Jews on how to be safely cautious of their actions. Because, like Yocheved said,

(woops, got cut off)

Because, like Yocheved said, xtians are still, as a matter of doctrine, obligated to aid in our "conversion".

quote:

Originally posted by Chaim5739:
(woops, got cut off)

Next time, simply click the "Edit" button, [it is the one you see by your own postings], within two hours of your posting. You have that amount of time to go back and fix the posting to how you want it to be.

quote:

Rob makes a good point. I should not generalize. There are some Jews who do not see the danger in opening a dialogue

And just to be clear, I am not saying that what I have observed (that there are those who don't show disdain) is proper... I was somewhat horrified by the kavod and warmth shown.

Like I said--they are our best allies. But also our greatest aggressive threat to our pure faith's preservation. Their love is sincere--but the ultimate expression of that love is to try to convert us. Therefore they must -on that account- be held at arm's length.

I had a very good dialogue with a seasoned English/Spanish Professor (Dean) on THursday. We were discussing these matters at length. He is a very good hearted man (righteous goy) and he told me (in the presence of others) that he never could bring himself to try to get me to "try on" christianity, and he couldn't figure out why. He knew I was very devout and honestly couldn't see anything "missing" in my faith. I told him that if I were to convert out of Judaism (G-d Forbid) taht HaSh-m would weep. Then I asked him about christianity's constant tendency to try to convert Jews--I asked him, if christian's got their way, and all the Jews were "enlightened" to christianity, then by christian's own beliefs, the prophecies COULD NOT be fulfilled! It is contrary to you own faith, I told him. He thought a while and said,"well, all Jews would never convert. G-d wouldn't allow it" I told him I agreed. So why do christians actively engage in activities that are clearly (even to their own minds) contrary to G-d? He said he didn't know. I aslos asked him why he thought people of the Jewish faith needed to be "saved" when HaSh-m HImself gave us the Torah to be the way to salvation for all the world? And how did he think people "went to heaven" before his Jesus? He said through faith, and I said then why did he think it was any different now, when HaSh-m says He is the "G-d who changeth not"? The conversation lasted about an hour, but it was profitable.

I think the issue of christian's constant pestering should be met with logical, open conversation without malice. Their arguments are easily dismantled, even the good debaters, so long as it is a thinking, educated person, and not some mindless militant, in which all communication should be avoided as no good can come of it. This man, after our friendly debate, said for the first time, he could see why it was inappropriate to try to convert Jewish people. Not all conversations turn out so positively (obviously) but it gave me some hope.

But I am a little more blatant about my faith than many are (verbally willing to take on others who express inappropriate views to me , especially in a collegiate forum), but I do wish peoplw would be willing to do so more often, as it may help to curb the freedom with which these people so often brazenly "attack".

By the way, I LOVE the term "Retaliatory Yiddishkeit". It is very Maccabean and inspirational.

Shalom Yocheved,

I must say, that was some very impressive logical gymnastics you performed there. I don't think I'd be as quick on my feet. You really had him cornered.

Of course, xtianity is fraught with paradox. But always remember, so is Judaism (when you dig deep enough). I think one of the fundamental difference between the two "religions" is our celebration of the paradox. We don't attempt to airbrush away paradoxes with "faith" and "love"; we embrace paradoxes with intellect. Actually, we purue paradox--in Yeshiva, we dig, and analyze, and dissolve our holiest text until we reach some philosophical impasse. It's almost as if we feel uncomfortable with anything that makes too much sense. And I think HaShem wants it that way. The more precarious our ontological precipice, the closer we are to Him.

This is also why I strongly discourage open dialogue between Judaism and xtianity. Respect, appreciation...that is one thing. But there can ultimately be no reconciliation of terms between the two. According to xtian doctrine, we are bound for "eternal damnation". And to the best of my knowledge, there is no loophole, no "stream" of christianity, which in anyway has us slated for a different, more favorable fate.

What Yocheved accomplished in her discussion is rare, and not everyone has her dialectic talents. Personally, I would probably be too emotional to reach such a marvelous consensus. And very often, as Yocheved pointed out, the other person just cannot accept anything beyond their dogma.

But a careful study of xtian, missionary techniques and throught processes does need to be conducted, and published in readily consumable, nonacademic terms.

You know, you are right in that it was a rare thing to come to an agreement. I think part of it was because this was a rational, thinking person who already had some notion in his conscience that it was wrong to try to proseletyze Jews, if for no other reason than because his religion is a morph of ours, (to put it nicely, more like hijacked ideas then turned into a polytheistic relion) so there was room to explore the notion that he JUST MIGHT be right to feel that way and then to give him some of teh reasons why. But frankly, it is rare to get anything but an agreement to disgree.

I think open dialogue is a good thing, with certain provisions. I know I have corrected COUNTLESS people on points of our faith which they were openly MIREPRESENTING. So sometimes confrontations are unavoidable. I remember at the University I graduated from, they required us to attend some lectures that were interactive and were openly making inaccurate statements about our faith. I was compelled to defend it and to correct them. Many times it was met with an apology and a promise on their part to hone their research. Other times there was an apology for the misrepresentation, but not for the unwavering stance taken against Jews "futures". But without fail, EVERY time, students would come pricately to ask me more about Judaism, and for the most part those were good instances with good and healthy outcomes along with the dispension of myths. Sometimes it was only to gawk at the novel presence of a Jewess. What is one to do? At times like those, I sometimes think the CHassidim are right to completely disengage the goyim world on all fronts. On the other hand, how can we repair it, and who would have been there to be a voice of truth to those poor naive students who were being spoon-fed agredious inaccuracies?

I don't mind the schizm between the faiths. Indeed, HaSh-m wants it that way. I mind ignorance--and for good reason. Look at how many atrocities have been perpetrated against our people on account of ignorance and lies?

I agree with you, Yocheved. I just pray that I have your coolness under philosophical fire. But, fortunately, people in the United States are at least familiar with the idea of pluralism and the existence of differing viewpoints (though some people are reluctant to allow them), so simply offering a window into Torah and her teachings, in contrast to what the xtian bible says about Judaism, could only help.

I suppose the real problem--a different breed of problem entirely--is the "Jews for J-sus" handbook of interfaith dialogue, which calls for guilesome trickery in lieu of mutual learning. Theyre express intent is to shatter belief in fundamental Torah teachings. They have scoured their "old testament" for talking-points and proof-texts that most under-educated Jews are not equipped to combat. I do not believe they are out to convince us of their religion's authenticity, but rather, they are trying to plant seeds of doubt in ours.

Unfortunately (and this is no excuse) I've been busy with school, and have not started getting my antimissionary efforts into motion. I think between Yocheved's, Sam's and Rob's ideas thus far, and the guidance of some of the other learned people here (David, I would love your help with this project--I think, for once, you and I could agree on its worthiness) we can start gaining support for a grassroots, internet campaign to "retaliate" the advances of the J for J movement.

I fear that this recent existential crisis in Israel will render so many Jews throughout emotionally fragile and, G-d forbid, dubious of Torah Emes...perfect victims for the J for Js. We need to act now. We need to fortify our philosophical defenses, and in the process, set this chain of teshuva in motion.

quote:

They have scoured their "old testament" for talking-points and proof-texts that most under-educated Jews are not equipped to combat. I do not believe they are out to convince us of their religion's authenticity, but rather, they are trying to plant seeds of doubt in ours.

THIS IS A REAL PROBLEM. I haven't read the material (I usually steer clear of thimgs like that but it woul dbe good to brush up.)

As for many falling prey to beguiling arguments--well, that is WHY MEN AND WOMEN NEED TO STUDY TORAH. It is not a sin not to be quick on your feet. It is a sin not to know Torah as a Jew. We are commanded to study, talk about, and meditate on its Words. There si no excuse not to do this.

THis brings me to another interesting point. I read an article on a Jewish website approximately a year ago stating that in light of the weakening numbres of the people of our faith, teh Conservative and Orthodox movements both were considering the allowing of limited proseletyzing to goyim. I remember being truly shocked by this because I was raised to believe the whole "turn them away three times" thing, etc. After considering it, I realized that historically our Hebrew/Jewish ancestors vascillated back and forth on this issue, at times actively engaging in it and at others completely refusing the idea. Personally, I have never been an encourager to others to become Jewish--why should I ? They can live as righteous gentiles and be blessed in this life and the next without the necessity of taking on the mantle. On the other hand, I am concerned not only about assimilation, intermarriage, but also sweeping affects of the reform movement. I am afraid of it because many of the liberal views it accepts effectively does away with nearly all Torah commands. Save the Hand of HaSh-m, I think that our people (observant Jews, fearful of abandonment of Torah)are an endangered species. In light of this conversation, what say you?

HaShem won't let us disappear. But that doesn't mean we should sit back and not actively try to prevent assimilation. We have to make our fate a reality.

Obviously, conversion is acceptable, otherwise there wouldn't be provisions for it in the Torah. But that worries me a little. Traditionally, the "3 times" rule was used to weed out those who were not capable of a Jewish lifestyle. And it was one of many hurdles a convert had to climb before being accepted into the fold. It ensured active, willing participants in our community. (Like we debated before, Judaism is more than a religion; it's a culture. Conversion is more complex than merely accepting the rules. Somehow, thousands of years of history has to be learned AND felt.)

Are we really in danger of extinction? Or is this a typical pattern for our people: growth, then partial assimilation, then resurgence again? I know the baal teshuva movement and Jewish/Israeli heritage programs are picking up steam.