I read somewhere that Jewish Ancestry used to be acknowledged by the Paternal line only. So if the father was Jewish the child was considered Jewish. I read that that was the case up until a certain time. (I believe it was 1000 C.E.?) If this is true, and with the new DNA tests that confirm paternity, could it be that there would be a trend to go back to the old way. I know that the father determines the tribe of the children, why are there so many tribes lost now? Is it because we only kept records of Jewish lineage ( for the most part) through the mother only? Also, the DNA of a male contains both paternal and maternal ancestral data. The DNA of a female only contains data about the maternal side of the family. Should we emphasize the importance of the Jewish male more? Or not? Maybe if we did it would leave no special place or purpose for the women in Judaism?

It's not true.

Good

It says, "the son of a Jewish woman, and his father was an Egyptian...." obviously Torah has held that the woman determines Jewish dientity. Compare this to Ishmael, and Aisav (none of their line is ever referred to as part of Israel)... also the story of Dinah, who has a daughter who is adopted by Potifer and becomes Yosef's wife in Mitzraim, and Yaakov Avinu, blesses them by calling them "His children" thus making Efrayim and Menasheh part of Yisrael (i.e. the tribe of Yosef, in Devarim/vezot habracha)... All the daughter's for kol bnei Yisrael (the son's of Yaakov) were related to Avraham, or Shem (see Chazal on Tamar in Chumash, where ref. is to Bereshith Rabah 85:10).
Paternal arguements are brought by Aisav, and Ishmael... Ishmael did t'shuvah, Aisav's t'shuvah was only circumstantial and he harboured hatred and resentment towards Yaakov... and both of their line have ancestoral grudges against Klal Yisrael (Amalek/Edom etc...)
The woman is a kli, and this can be likened to the example of a 'mold'... hence in making something that requires a mold: if the mold has a defect, then the item being molded is not/may not be usable, even if the highest quality substances are placed into the mold at the start of the process...
This raises the question about converts like Yithro, and the line of David coming from Ruth, a Moabite (ger tzadiqah)...
Here is another idea: go look and see how a diamond is formed - this will address the question of a true ger tzaddiq... the Jew (from Jewish parents) is like a gem stone, a quartz, or sapphire, ruby, or emerald. These gems are "grown" from a chemical compund that is molecular, they are naturally occuring because of the elements, a diamond does not occur as 'a natural growth', because it must have special circumstances in order to form... finally, don't be fooled by the Pearl - the Pearl is considered of great value for its beauty, and yet at it's core it is an 'irritation' - not to mention it is formed in an oyster/shellfish. The Pearl is formed by placing a 'forgein object' into the oyster (or mollusk, etc.) and this object can be "anything" a rock, sand, even a chuck of garage... the oyster then coats the object with a lusterous smooth shell because there is no way for the oyster to expell the object if it has become embbeded within its soft tissue...(interesting)
There were three sons of Noah: Cham - was cursed for being perverse; Yaphet - it says will have great wealth and beautiful tents in which Shem will dwell and be honored (interesting Midrash), and Shem (Shem is the line of Avraham)...
Isn't Torah Amazing... Isn't HaShem Awesome!

Would love feedback and references regarding these ideas... Todah rabah!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Yehonaton:
It says, "the son of a Jewish woman, and his father was an Egyptian...." obviously Torah has held that the woman determines Jewish dientity. "

Does it say that if the father is an Egyptian and the mother is Jewish that the child is Jewish? Where is it written, and when?



"Compare this to Ishmael, and Aisav (none of their line is ever referred to as part of Israel)"

How do we know that any their descendents are not part of Israel? Especially if they are women? Why would we admit that any of their descendents are part of Israel? Of course, we would only record those who are more prominently Jewish.


"... also the story of Dinah, who has a daughter who is adopted by Potifer and becomes Yosef's wife in Mitzraim, and Yaakov Avinu, blesses them by calling them "His children" thus making Efrayim and Menasheh part of Yisrael (i.e. the tribe of Yosef, in Devarim/vezot habracha)... All the daughter's for kol bnei Yisrael (the son's of Yaakov) were related to Avraham, or Shem (see Chazal on Tamar in Chumash, where ref. is to Bereshith Rabah 85:10)."

There you have it! All of the daughter's for Kol bnei Yisrael were related to Avraham or Shem. Doesn't that include Ishmael and Esau since they are related to Abraham?


"Paternal arguements are brought by Aisav, and Ishmael... Ishmael did t'shuvah, Aisav's t'shuvah was only circumstantial and he harboured hatred and resentment towards Yaakov... and both of their line have ancestoral grudges against Klal Yisrael (Amalek/Edom etc...)"

What happened to Esau to make his Tshuva only circumstancial?
Who in this day and age is really Ishmael and who is Esau? Who really is Klal Israel? I see Judaism more as a religion than the original Klal Israel who were authentic descendents of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel. it is more of an adoptive family nowadays, I think. It is all like purim, how do you know who's who?


"The woman is a kli, and this can be likened to the example of a 'mold'... hence in making something that requires a mold: if the mold has a defect, then the item being molded is not/may not be usable, even if the highest quality substances are placed into the mold at the start of the process...
This raises the question about converts like Yithro, and the line of David coming from Ruth, a Moabite (ger tzadiqah)...
Here is another idea: go look and see how a diamond is formed - this will address the question of a true ger tzaddiq... the Jew (from Jewish parents) is like a gem stone, a quartz, or sapphire, ruby, or emerald. These gems are "grown" from a chemical compund that is molecular, they are naturally occuring because of the elements, a diamond does not occur as 'a natural growth', because it must have special circumstances in order to form... finally, don't be fooled by the Pearl - the Pearl is considered of great value for its beauty, and yet at it's core it is an 'irritation' - not to mention it is formed in an oyster/shellfish. The Pearl is formed by placing a 'forgein object' into the oyster (or mollusk, etc.) and this object can be "anything" a rock, sand, even a chuck of garage... the oyster then coats the object with a lusterous smooth shell because there is no way for the oyster to expell the object if it has become embbeded within its soft tissue...(interesting)"

Very interesting! It reminds me of an amethyst(means "not drunken") candle holder that my son who collects gemstones gave me this summer. The hole for the candle is like the mold.

"There were three sons of Noah: Cham - was cursed for being perverse; Yaphet - it says will have great wealth and beautiful tents in which Shem will dwell and be honored (interesting Midrash), and Shem (Shem is the line of Avraham)..."

There we go again, Jewish paternal line!

"Isn't Torah Amazing... Isn't HaShem Awesome!"

Yes! Yes!

"Would love feedback and references regarding these ideas... Todah rabah!"

Sorry if my feedback and references are so minimal. I am a "lightminded" woman, I guess.

Shana Tova!

B"H

Raybin,

A person's tribal affiliation is determined by his paternal line. This has always been the case and is still practiced today, by all. A person is a Cohen, or a Levite, or Israelite, by virtue of his fathers' line. So, too, inheritance laws are determined by one's paternal line, and not by his maternal line.

On the other hand, one's Jewishness (i.e. one's standing in the eyes of G-d that he is a bona fide Jew by religious practice) is based on whether or not his mother was a Jew, or else he had converted to our religion. I think with regard to that Israelite woman who married an Egyptian, her husband was supposed to have been a proselyte to the Israelite faith. When he eventually proceeded to that degree of insolence so as to curse the G-d of Israel, his crime became unbearable.

I once wrote about how a person is considered Jewish by virtue of his mother's line, and so for the benefit of those on the GY, I will paste it again here.

QUESTION:

How do we know that a child is Jewish when his mother is Jewish?

ANSWER:

A teaching in Devorim 7:3 is used by us to show how only a child born from a Jewish mother is to be considered a Jew, though he might have had a gentile father. There, we find the prohibition about taking the Canaanites in marriage, viz., "You shall not consummate marriages with them, nor shall you give your daughter to his son or take his son for your daughter, since he will turn away your son from following me." By looking very closely and diacritically at the wording of the text, it says "...since he (the Canaanite father) will turn away your son (i.e. the child born to your Jewish daughter) from following me." Here, we see that G-d still reckons the child to be Jewish by calling him, "your son" - id est, even though such unions were forbidden. G-d calls him "your son," implying that he is still an Israelite because he was born from a Jewish mother. However, the opposite is not true. The Torah does not say, "...for she (the Canaanite mother) will turn away your son." In this case, the child would no longer be considered your son, but rather a gentile. (Cf. Yevamoth 76a; Numbers Rabba 19:3).

This teaching is found written in the Midrash Rabba, passed down unto us by Rabbi Yohanan, who stated the same in the name of Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai.

Sincerely,
David

Thank you, David, for the clarification.

I am glad the maternal line counts.