Recently at my midrasha we had a discussion, and I was wondering about some insights to the question. The question we were discussing is as follows. Apparently, there was someone frum on one of the top floors of the world trade center, and knew that there was no way possible for him to escape. What we heard, was that because he did not want his wife to be an agunah, he therefore jumped from the building. On one hand, he commited suicide (which is not permitted). On the other hand, he was going to die soon, and the reason he jumped was not selfish, it was for his wife's sake. Halachically, was he permitted to jump?
Posts: 28 | Location: North of Yirushalayim, Israel | Registered: March 09, 2005
B/c the flames of the building were so hot, they would have burned the body until there was no body left. The rosh yishivat hesder shilo, when we asked him about it, he said, in the end it was paskined that wives who lost thier husband's in the building, would not be considered agunot, but at the time of 9/11, he could not have known that.
Posts: 28 | Location: North of Yirushalayim, Israel | Registered: March 09, 2005
Shalom. I would like to present a thought for your consideration. This is an interesting and sublte problem, but try to think of it in this way. In your example, the man in question has decided to break one law in order to protect his wife from another. Yet BOTH laws were created, says Tradition, by G-d. There-for, is the man justified in breaking on of G-d's Laws in order to CIRCUMVENT another of G-d's laws? Even though his heart seems to be in the right place and he is acting in an unselfish manor, by jumping does he not break one of G-d's laws AND disrespect another? Since both laws are of divine origin (again, according to Tradition), should not this man yield to the Law of his People, trusting that his wife would be in the hands of G-d?
I know that this may sound very harsh and I am sorry for it. However, I am only presenting this problem in one possible light. Please feel free to discuss and rebut. Peace be on you.
There is an time when suiside would be permissible. Shaul the King had someone kill him (assisted suiside?) rather than be captured and tortured to death. I don't know when something is permissible or not, but there is room to question.
Posts: 2 | Location: Brooklyn, NY | Registered: March 13, 2005
I am no expert on interpretation of the Law, and I am not even going to start judging those who were in WTC on 9/11/2001. Whatever they did - may Hashem be fair to them. But I think it is permissible under certain circumstances to circumvent one law in order to keep another. A doctor is required to save a life, even if it involves driving and/or working on Shabbat. It is my understanding that Israeli soldiers are on regular duty on Saturdays, even if they are frum. While all mitzvoth are equal, there's still an hierarchy of Commandments. Saving a life always takes precedence. Similarly, this man, I think, had every right to do what he did, especially if he thought that it would help his wife. In his situation, he was thinking not about himself, but about his family. He is a hero, in my view...
This message has been edited. Last edited by: Alex,
Posts: 451 | Location: California | Registered: October 11, 2004
Alex, I agree with you regarding breaking one law to secure another, as in the example you have given of a doctor driving on shabbot to save a life. But I wonder if we can apply that reasoning to the hypothetical situation with which we have been presented? In the case before us, the man is not breaking a law to save a life nor is he breaking one law to secure or serve another. Rather, as the case is presented, he is breaking one law to AVOID another law's impact on his wife. His motives are obviously good, but does that justify the action? I personally believe that the intent of a man or woman is very important, but I am not sure how that would effect this case. Any thoughts on these points?
But I think since there was no way for him to escape being burned into ashes or breaking his neck to death, this man was not hastening death by jumping out the window. So technically, I don't even think he committed suicide. He only chose the way he died.
Posts: 451 | Location: California | Registered: October 11, 2004
Well i never heard of that case but i heard about this one - my fathers friend was in the WTC and he saw that there was no way to escape - he called his wife and told her the situation and members of hatzolah called a big rav and they paskened from the phone calll that his wife was not an agunah since there was no way for him to escape so he did not survive - so even if this guy didnt jump - there was still no way for him to surive so his wife should defintely not be an agunah
Posts: 56 | Location: new york | Registered: March 20, 2005
GREAT points, both, Alex and Manachem. Menachem, this was only a hypothetical example, not a real situation, but your own story, along with Alex's I think clears this up nicely. Alex, the fact that he is not hastening death is a great point! Thanks! And Menachem's point is equally enlightening. Thank you both; I think this issues has been answered.
Chevra - look at the story in the gemara abour R. Akiva - when he was in prison the guards cut his water supply in 1/2 now he was faced with the dilemma - do I drink or wash? he chose to wash, even though it could have hastened his death his reasoning being that to violate a rabbinic precept would render him liable for the death penalty. . . It's a hard call - I was the rabbi of a shul in NY at the time of 9/11 and the shul president was killed instantly when the first plane hit - his wife called me up and asked when to start sitting shiva - another member had a son who was a NY firefighter - she came in 2nd day RH and asked me to make a mi shebeirach for him - Hashem yishmor -
Posts: 6 | Location: Springfield, MA | Registered: February 11, 2005
Originally posted by Alex: I am no expert on interpretation of the Law, and I am not even going to start judging those who were in WTC on 9/11/2001. Whatever they did - may Hashem be fair to them. But I think it is permissible under certain circumstances to circumvent one law in order to keep another. A doctor is required to save a life, even if it involves driving and/or working on Shabbat. It is my understanding that Israeli soldiers are on regular duty on Saturdays, even if they are frum. While all mitzvoth are equal, there's still an hierarchy of Commandments. Saving a life always takes precedence. Similarly, this man, I think, had every right to do what he did, especially if he thought that it would help his wife. In his situation, he was thinking not about himself, but about his family. He is a hero, in my view...
Posts: 4 | Location: New York | Registered: December 28, 2004
The reason why life takes precedence over almost all mitzvos is because of the posuk (verse) of vocahi bohem velo shyomus bohem (you should live with the mitzvos and not die with them).In the instant case,he was shortening his life (albeit momentarily). Also, according to one opinion, if two people are together and one of them possesses only enough water for the survival of one of them, the owner of the water is compelled to drink all of it himself.My Rebbe, Rav Leshinsky explained that this is because Hashem is the owner of a person's life and not himself.Hence his life is not his to sacrifice. Of course, I am not judging this person.
Posts: 4 | Location: New York | Registered: December 28, 2004
Apparently, there was someone frum on one of the top floors of the world trade center, and knew that there was no way possible for him to escape. What we heard, was that because he did not want his wife to be an agunah, he therefore jumped from the building.
And this story was told by someone who read the fellows mind and whereas the frum person jumped because he saw no hope, the person who brought this tale, and I assume he would have been nearby in the same dilemma, didnt jump because he had an escape route that he didnt tell the frum man about?
Im sorry if I sound mockish but this sounds like a straw man created to "what if" a halacha.
Posts: 44 | Location: USA | Registered: January 09, 2005
Originally posted by Menachem: Well i never heard of that case but i heard about this one - my fathers friend was in the WTC and he saw that there was no way to escape - he called his wife and told her the situation and members of hatzolah called a big rav and they paskened from the phone calll that his wife was not an agunah since there was no way for him to escape so he did not survive - so even if this guy didnt jump - there was still no way for him to surive so his wife should defintely not be an agunah
Anyone one with a little learning would not need the paskan of a "big rav" to know what the proper derech is. The lesson to be learned here is that we have not learned from the days of Hillel, when asked about carrying the knife for shecitah on the Yom Tov, admonished the people that they failed to learn from Shmaya and Avtalyon. And said to trust Bnai Israe, Ki im ain Neviim haym, benai Neveim Haym. And of course if you know the story they came with the knifes jammed into the horns so their was no chillul.
We have abdicated being Bnai Neveeim, in favor of calling a "big rav" all the time? and to do this in such horrific circumstances when the Halacha is so clear, boggles the mind.
Posts: 44 | Location: USA | Registered: January 09, 2005
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