This topic is about HaSh-m's Justice and trying (if I can) to understand it as it pertains to death. ONe of the rabbis on this message board was attempting to explain the principal of the fact that G-d is in everything that happens and even such things as spontaneous miscarriages. If a person has a miscarriage, then the soul is presumably recycled and re-sent to earth ,as G-d is just and the child had no opportunity to live or make decisions yet (I am paraphrasing parts of his and my discussion, these are not direct quotes).

Also, if the example is used of whether person A tries to murder person B, was it person B's time to die? The answer was suggested that if it was not person B's time to die then the attempt would fail.

While I like this answer very much, it still leaves me wondering as to the issue of justice, hence the forum title.

For instance, what of children who die of cancer at age 18 months or two years? Are their souls recycled?
WHAT IS THE CUT-OFF AGE??
(I am sure someone has a quote from the Talmud that I am not familiar with and I would welcome their insight on this.)

Also, what about the play of free will. For instance was it Abel's time to die when he was murdered, or was it a horrible act of free will (and many many other similar examples have come since the beginning of recorded history).

My thoughts thus far on this deep issue are as follows:

G-d indeed watches EVERYTHING, and yes, He may ALLOW it to happen, else it couldn't, HOWEVER,
He did not AUTHOR all actions, (nor does He agree with many of man's choices).

This doesn't "sum up" everything (nor would I be so arrogant as to assume that I could sum up the vast mind of G-d!) Nor am I trying to be the queen of simple answers to difficult questions.

What I AM trying to do, is to come up with real answers to real issues which are problematic for me. ANy Torah-based answers to these questions would be heartily appreciated. I have yet to find any that have satisfied me on this.

Shalom, Erev Tov,
Yocheved

To say that when a person is murdered it was his time to die, has its difficulties. For instance in a plane crash in which every one was killed,did it just happen to be that everyone on the plane had reached his time? If a terrorist blows up a bus, does that mean it was the time for all people killed on the bus?

The explanation that would make more sense to me is that when a person is in a perilous situation, he will require a miraculous intervention by Godto be saved. Then the person will be evaluated in heaven as to whether he has enough merit to be worthy of this salvation. If not he may not be saved.

Of course this will not explain all tragedies that occur in this world.Many questions will have to wait until Moshiach comes to be answered.

This seems to be more logical to me. So the very very good ones are miraculously saved and the others are not? Aren't very fine Rabbis occasionally killed in bombings or other not-so-natural disasters like plane crashes?
I know some people are actually saved from disasters like plane crashes or more poignantly, were saved from the Shoah, and have a great deal of anxiety, sorrow, and guilt for having survived while so many did not.
Yocheved

quote:

The explanation that would make more sense to me is that when a person is in a perilous situation, he will require a miraculous intervention by Godto be saved. Then the person will be evaluated in heaven as to whether he has enough merit to be worthy of this salvation. If not he may not be saved.

This is very helpful, thankyou.
Yocheved

quote:

Originally posted by Yocheved Broscova-Guerra:
This seems to be more logical to me. So the very very good ones are miraculously saved and the others are not? Aren't very fine Rabbis occasionally killed in bombings or other not-so-natural disasters like plane crashes?
I know some people are actually saved from disasters like plane crashes or more poignantly, were saved from the Shoah, and have a great deal of anxiety, sorrow, and guilt for having survived while so many did not.
Yocheved

I don't know how good or what merits they would need to be saved, that is something only known by God.
As I said this cannot explain all situations. Some we cannot know.

Quote "If a person has a miscarriage, then the soul is presumably recycled and re-sent to earth"

I think it was a recycled soul that needed to have an atonement, thus afterwards, would be able to get into heaven for having to suffer coming down here again.

I think in general, it's a large "Sugya" with many aspects and variables. Maybe if I have a chance maybe I'll be able to put together something.

Quote "The explanation that would make more sense to me is that when a person is in a perilous situation, he will require a miraculous intervention by Godto be saved. Then the person will be evaluated in heaven as to whether he has enough merit to be worthy of this salvation. If not he may not be saved."

This explanation Has merit from the Mishna in 31b of Shabbos (and paraphrased by Kollel Iyun Hadaf)

a) (Mishnah): Women die when giving birth on account of three transgressions - they are not careful about Nidah, Chalah, and lighting Neros [Shabbos].

and Gemara on 32a

1) PUNISHMENTS COME AT TIMES OF DANGER

(a) Question: Why do they die specifically when giving birth?

(b) Answer #1 (Rava): People run to slaughter a bull that it fell (it is the best opportunity - likewise, the time of birth is most opportune for a woman to die).

(c) Answer #2 (Abaye): A Shifchah gets beaten for all of her transgressions at once (similarly, a woman is punished for her sins together with fulfillment of Chavah's curse that birth will be painful).

(d) Answer #3 (Rav Chisda): One need not topple a drunkard (he will fall by himself - similarly, a fetus is primed to kill a pregnant woman, if Hashem will not save her).

(e) Answer #4 (Mar Ukva): A lame shepherd cannot hit healthy goats [that deserve to be hit], they will receive their lashes in the pen - likewise, often a healthy woman has merits that do not allow the Satan to prosecute, but when she needs a miracle to give birth, he can prosecute).

(f) Answer #5 (Rav Papa): There is brotherhood in a place of wealth, but not in a place of poverty (likewise, when a woman is in danger [on account of birth], her advocates abandon her).

(g) Question: When are men judged?

(h) Answer (Reish Lakish): They are judged when they pass over a bridge.

(i) Question: Is this the only time?!

(j) Answer: They are judged when they pass over a bridge, or anything similar (any place of danger).

(k) Rav would not go [across a river] on a ferry with a Nochri, lest the Nochri is due to be punished, and Rav will be punished with him.

(l) Shmuel would go on a ferry only with a Nochri - he holds that the Satan does not rule over (punish people of) different nations at the same time.

(m) R. Yanai would check a ferry [for leaks] before going on it - this is like he taught elsewhere:

1. (R. Yanai): One should not go in a place of danger, expecting a miracle - perhaps a miracle will not be done for him; even if a miracle is done, it diminishes from his merits.

Rav. Chaim,

Thankyou for putting that together. Very informative...frightening, but informative.
Yocheved

quote:

he will fall by himself - similarly, a fetus is primed to kill a pregnant woman, if Hashem will not save her

quote:

but when she needs a miracle to give birth,

According to the above quotes, it seems that a woman should die during childbirth and only a miracle will save her. Is this correct? If yes, then:

a) why should any woman get pregnant, one isn't supposed to put oneself into danger, as quoted:

quote:

1. (R. Yanai): One should not go in a place of danger, expecting a miracle - perhaps a miracle will not be done for him; even if a miracle is done, it diminishes from his merits.

b) why is it that nowadays when generally people are not worthy of miracles, LESS women die during childbirth than earlier generations?

Well said, Gila!
Perhaps now, with improvements to medical science it takes less miracles from G-d to save us? I don't think that is a very logical argument, either.

Since we know that it is a mitzvah to have children, and a prohibition to put one's own self in danger, we would have a huge conflict!

quote:

Originally posted by Yocheved Broscova-Guerra:
Well said, Gila!
Perhaps now, with improvements to medical science it takes less miracles from G-d to save us? I don't think that is a very logical argument, either.

I disagree. Any medical advances that HAVE been made ARE miracles from Hashem.

I think that if one is going to be cognizant of the dangers which one may be in ( and the dangers exist in one's home as well: slipping in the bathroom, falling down stairs, etc), then really it is just an opportunity to take a closer look at oneself to better do tshuva. Perhaps one should be living every day as if it is the last. Be more introspective, think twice (at least!)before one speaks, do a daily cheshbon hanefesh, try to be mentshlich, torahdik, etc, and lastly, daven. HaKadosh Baruch Hu wants what is best for us and if we have needs or concerns all we need to do is voivce them.

So then if G-d was unwilling to perform a miracle directly to save an undeserving woman's life during childbirth, then He will still permit his other miracle (medical science) to do so? I don't think that is a logical argument. Either He is willing to save or not, and if He is not, then NO medical knowledge will.

I am saying that medical science IS a miracle.

let me tell a brief story about my neighbor who was hit by a car just a couple of weeks ago. Mamash, this boy was in surgery for hours. Every time a nurse came out to give the family an update,w hen she would go back into the O.R. the minyan(!) that showed up to keep them company, would get up and dance. They davened maariv in the waiting room. Anyway, I digress. While he was semi-conscious (they kept him in a coma due to the severe trauma to his brain) he was mumbling under his breath. This is what was heard: Hashem, I didn't realize that I would have to do this much/ this kind of tshuva.
It was a NEIS min hashamayim, that Yechiel is home and walking and talking today. A NEIS! Sure the dr.s did surgery, but everyone said it was b'chasdei Hashem.
By the way, my neighbor? he's only 12 years old.
And if you daven/say tehillim, please have him in mind for a complete recovery: Yechiel Yaakov Tzvi ben Devora Esther.

Also, a person can do tshuva at the very last second... so who's to say whether it is medical science or what...

and how could we say that someone is 'undeserving'?

My other thought is that a person is sent to earth to perform a tikkun for his/her neshama. When that neshama is perfected thenit is no longer needed here in Olam Hazeh. Some people only need to fix a little bit - whereas I, well I'm probably going to need alifetime (or two!) to fix my middos - and then who's to say if that was what I was supposed to be focusing on in the first place.
so maybe that woman who dies in childbirth - lo aleinu - had accomplished what she needed to do. I certainly don't have the right answers, but I'd rather give a positive slant than a negative one. I'm thinking of a particular woman who was driving down to Chicago with her family when their vehicle was struck by another, she - lo aleinu - was niftar. What did this mean for her? for her young/ large family? for her spouse? I'd rather think taht she did everything that she could here and was done, then that she was undeserving. She was an eishes chayil and is sorely missed.

Quote "Perhaps now, with improvements to medical science it takes less miracles from G-d to save us? I don't think that is a very logical argument, either."

I think it's very logical. Nowadays there is much less risk involved, so there is no need for miracles, it just standard procedure.

Quote "According to the above quotes, it seems that a woman should die during childbirth and only a miracle will save her. Is this correct? If yes, then:

a) why should any woman get pregnant, one isn't supposed to put oneself into danger, as quoted:"

Since it's a natural phenomenon, so it's not a problem. You're not allowed to put yourself into situations that are dangerous that is not part of natural living.

quote:

Originally posted by Rabbi Y. Kacev:

quote:

Originally posted by Yocheved Broscova-Guerra:
This seems to be more logical to me. So the very very good ones are miraculously saved and the others are not? Aren't very fine Rabbis occasionally killed in bombings or other not-so-natural disasters like plane crashes?
I know some people are actually saved from disasters like plane crashes or more poignantly, were saved from the Shoah, and have a great deal of anxiety, sorrow, and guilt for having survived while so many did not.
Yocheved

I don't know how good or what merits they would need to be saved, that is something only known by God.
As I said this cannot explain all situations. Some we cannot know.

It is interesting to note that when Abraham was pleading with Hashem to save S'dom and Amorah he stopped pleading when he had got down to "If there are 10 righteous people in the city, then please save it." The implication is that had there been (say) 9 righteous people they would have been killed along with everyone else, even if they didn't deserve to die at that point in time.

Precisely my take on it. This also reinforces the idea of it taking ten men to be considered enough to make a new congregation in an area. As for those poor nine souls, I have to say that it is one of those terrible but true things--you suffer the fate of the bad company you keep! He had no business there in the first place, (outside of monotary business, obviously which took presidence over his good judgement).

I think there are too many variables in this conversation to resolve it in a single forum:

1. A person could die because they were constantly intertwined with unrighteous GOyim ala S'dom and Amorah, hence had no protection from HaSh-m in those dark places.

2. A person could be suffering judgement

3. A person could have finished that which he had to ammend here--whatever that is.

4. A person could be murdered, and it was an act of volition on the part of an evil person (i.e. Cain).

5. A person could die to sanctify the name of HaSh-m, and it was HaSh-m's will that that person be placed in a position to do so in order to testify to the existence of the ONE G-D.

6. A person could be in a place (third world country as I have been) doing work to help save dying people and suffer an accident and then cannot get medical help because they are in the same forgotten place that all the rest of these poor sould are in.

And the list goes on. I am not saying medical science isn't a miracle. What I am saying is that it is a contradiction to say that if HaSh-m refuses to provide one miracle (via His direct hand) to save then why would He allow another miracle (medical science ) to save that same person? If He wills that they may not be saved, then they WON'T be saved.

I, too can give hair-raising examples of people saved with and without medical science who by all laws of nature SHOULD NOT be breathing, (I am one of those people). But this doesn't mean I am here (nor any of the others) unless HaSh-m wills us to be. If He wills it not to be, then nothing can save. I am not saying , as I said, that medical science isn't a miracle. I am saying that no miracles are contrary to one another--that all miracles are given by His hand and in COMPLETE accordance with His own will. What we cannot answer, is WHY is it His will sometimes and NOT at others.

I hope this clarifies what I am trying to say. This is a vast subject.

Shalom,
Yocheved

quote:

If He wills that they may not be saved, then they WON'T be saved.

That is what we say in the Refaeinu (Heal Us) prayer, in the Amida: '...Ki S'Hiloseinu Ato' - 'Because you are our praise.' Meaning, as I once read in R' Birnbaum's book Pathway to Prayer, that it is Hashem who is our praise when we are healed, not the doctors.

quote:

And the list goes on. I am not saying medical science isn't a miracle. What I am saying is that it is a contradiction to say that if HaSh-m refuses to provide one miracle (via His direct hand) to save then why would He allow another miracle (medical science ) to save that same person?

I heard last week in a shiur, that the Ramchal (R' Moshe Chaim Luzzato) said that it is a huge misconception - possibly even akin to idol worship! - to think that Hashem has to work within the framework of Nature. If He wills it, anything WILL happen, whether we think it possible or not. It may appear as if things happen due to Nature (or medicine), but in reality, all that happens is what Hashem wills.

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In the above mentioned shiur, the topic under discussion was : why do bad things happen to good people and vice-versa?

In this book of the Ramchal, the questions and answers are in the format of the soul asking the Da'as (the mind) various questions. The Da'as replies, that to understand this is beyond the capability of the human intellect. However, one can learn the general principles (Klallim) to the matter (but only after one has amassed much and deep knowledge of the Torah), but even then, one cannot apply that to specific cases (Pratim).

I assume that the essence of what Yocheved asked was this question. We know, that even when Moshe Rabbeinu asked Hashem this question, Hashem replied that it is beyond Moshe. (even Moshe!)

However, what comforts me, is that whatever happens, I know that there is a reason for it, and in Hashem's infinite Da'as, everything that happens, is good. While it is impossible to understand why what happens - why a friend dies 3 days before her 4th wedding anniversary, or why a girl loses her mother at the age of 16 - happens, I am rest assured that Hashem, our Father in heaven, looks out for us, and does what is truly in the best of our interests.

Sincerely,
Dovi