The quotes taken below are from another discussion on the forum in the Mussar Room called, "Because I fell I was Able to Rise." Started by our GY director- Rabbi Mitterhoff.

quote:

Originally posted by Rabbi Mitterhoff:


... I hold that one of the reasons why we are being so exposed to the media along with all it glorification
of lust and desires, is to bring us to a true devotion. Anyone one who is just serving Hashem externally
and out of habit can easily be swept away by the Internet and all the impurity of modern society. In
order to withstand these pervasive forces one has to be religious to his core. Sin can destroy one's
identity and be a catalyst grow into someone who truly fears his creator. The main thing is to never give
up because Hashem will always take you back if you do t'shuva.

I've refrained from posting about the usage of internet as all of us who peruse this site are ON the
internet and my posting will most likely become a controversial issue, but as I just read this quote and I
feel very strongly about this issue I would like to bring up the topic of internet usage in the frum
community.

As you are the respectable director of the forum Rabbi Mitterhoff, I would like to quote peices of what i have
already quoted above and ask for an indepth analysis of the topic. Rav Chaim, I am sure you will bring
to the table what gedolei hador have said regarding the topic, and of course everyone else is invited to
participate in the discussion. It is a very heavy topic which may or may not be black and white.


"I hold that one of the reasons why we are being so exposed to the media along with all it glorification of
lust and desires, is to bring us to a true devotion. Anyone one who is just serving Hashem externally and
out of habit can easily be swept away by the Internet and all the impurity of modern society."


Although we are constantly bombarded by the goyishe media and although it should serve to increase
our avodas Hashem, the reality is that the common person has quite a yetzor hora that whispers forever
in his or her ear, and as soon as they expose themselves to the doorway of temptation, little by little the
yetzor hora causes them to inch their way in. Rabbi Mitterhoff, your second sentence says that one to
whom avodas hashem is rote runs a very high risk of being swept of the derech.

Unfortunately, the risk of avodas Hashem becoming mundane is greatest within the frum from birth
community- because FFB's have been doing the same avoda for an extended period of time, whereas
to someone who is newer to Judaism- it is still exciting and the yiddishkeit becoming mundane causing
temptation to sway may not be as great.
Also, to the new comer to Judaism- they most likely have lost their extreme sensitivity to the media at a
young age, whereas a FFB may have stood a greater chance of being sheltered as a child from it all and
as an adult will digest the shtus on a greater and more sensitive level.
With this great risk of yiddishkeit becoming mundane, and the knowledge that an FFB is more sensitive
(or should be) to the media and its influences, and the added problem of the yetzor hora- the internet is
a very very dangerous place to hold tight to one's yiddishkeit.

Although we are forbidden to remind a baal teshuva of his past, it is true that a baal teshuva DOES have
a past (Rav Chaim, I am speaking of tinuk shenishba- but for the common person who may more
commonly refer to him/her as a BT- i will be using BT in this posting and most subsequent postings).

For someone new to yiddishkeit, i think maybe the internet would not be AS dangerous, because it can
be used for the purpose of kiruv and for some kind of connection to community and Torah learning. However, an FFB should already have the connection, or the ability to make this connection without the use of the internet.

for a BT and a frum-from-birther there may possibly be different standards, or there may not be- but
the question remains the same:

What are the halachos of the internet?

Who can use it? Who cannot? What are the guidelines? How do we set up boundaries? The common
man cannot set up boundaries for himself- for the common man will most likely lose to his yetzor hora.
Where do we draw the line?

I was speaking to a friend the other night about their being in Florida but not walking on the beach
during the day because of the likelyhood of putting something before their holy yiddishe eyes that
shouldnt be there- the same reason a Jew shouldnt watch movies or television. Nothing is compared to
seeing.

And the internet is all about sight.

This is a cry to all those who love Torah and wish to live a Holy life to examine the standards of Torah
living and to do something about it.

Where do we draw the line?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Rabbi Mitterhoff,

quote:

And the internet is all about sight.

Advertisements on New York City public transporation - such as GAP jeans advertisements along the 5th avenue busses --- THOSE are all about sight.

The internet however is simply a communications mechanism which we have utilized for over 25 years to exchange packets of data between computers each with a 4-number internet address.

If by sight you suggest high resolution color graphics, no, we were happy to excange data between computers which was only textual - more textual than GY since no emoticons available on a character cell terminal.

Perhaps by "the internet" you are refering to the "killer app" service reachable through the internet called "the web", and the hypertext transport protocol which makes it so easy to access well-formatted combinations of hypertext and image graphics? The web has surely change the way Wall Street took notice of the internet protocols and internet backbone connectivity, but really it does not define the internet.

In fact the smutty pictures apparently available thorugh some web sites no more define the internet than does the White House phone sex scandal define the telephone transport also used by Telephone Chavrusa projects.

Where do we draw the line?

Please first tell me where the line was drawn about not walking in New York City for fear of seeing a public transportation advertisement, or not having any public access telephone numbers for fear it could be a White House type call.

Rob, face it- with all due respect, you are not a normal person. You are a walking brain! Not everyone sees the world in a series of letters, numbers, and scientific thought processes. As you said on a previous forum- you think as an engineer and it shows in your writings.

From my understanding, the poster was talking about the average person who experiances the internet. The average person doesnt see the world they way you appear to.

And the difference between public transportation and NYC etc is there is the difference between INTERNAL and EXTERNAL. Bring the internet into one's own home and life is very different from riding the subway. Things done in private are often deeper and darker than simply walking through the streets.

Also, there is the added danger to klal yisroel when it comes to public forums like this, or chat rooms which may be visited... Anyone can access them- and if they dont like what they read that we have written, if they feel offended etc- we have just either gained an enemy who may poison many goyim towards us, or may have turned off a Jew from coming closer.

The problem is that outside of the Rabbi's who are online solely to be m'kariv yidden- the average Jew who is online is not a Rosh Yeshiva or a talmid chocham, but a run of the mill person who may say they wrong thing and cause us the afore-mentioned repurcussions.

The internet is a VERY dangerous thing in many aspects. Spiritually and physically for the Jewish people.

quote:

Where do we draw the line?

I don't think it is any more difficult than using any other medium. We should be guided by Torah and where it draws the line, that is where we should also. And if we keep our mind on Torah, as many a sage has said, we will be fine.

Just as we can abuse statistics, so we could abuse the internet. It is just a tool. We choose how we use it.

And I think it would be most profitable for us if we turn our minds to Torah, using the internet to do so as well as using other ways.

B"H
With regard to that question raised in this thread, the propensity for men to fall into temptations on the Internet is greater than that of women. If we might only remember two things in this regard:

1) "No man is an innocent by-stander when it comes to lechery." (lit. No man is a guardian)
אין אפוטרפוס לעריות.


2) "The heart and the eye are two abettors to the crime."
לב ועין שני סרסורין לעבירה.
(זוהר הקדוש, חלק ב', קט"ז,ב)

David Ben-Abraham

Wow, is this going to be a can of worms! This is a very serious question. Before I started the Global Yeshiva, I spoke with two Gedolim to ask them if I could use the internet for this project. Both of them pushed me to open the Global Yeshiva but one of them said it would be better if I did not have the internet in my house but in a side office. I opened an office in my machson. I have actually tried to quit the Global Yeshiva several times because of my feelings about the disgusting internet! But each time I would go back to a certain Gadol who would actually fight me and demand that I continue. Now I feel that he was correct because of the success of the site. We had 420 posts and 11,255 visits this week!

Let us face it, the internet is destroying thousands of Jewish souls and pornography is reaching Jews who by nature in a million years would never be involved in such garbage. Someone told me a story about boys in an American cheder walking around with porno on their ipods. How is a twelve-year boy on the internet supposed to control himself? I do not believe there has ever been a yetzer hara like this in all of history. On the other hand, the tiva for avodah zarah was removed from the world so we have never experienced that, Baruch Hashem. Lets not also forget that even without all the garbage being watched there is tremendous bital Torah happening because of the internet. This also should not be taken lightly.

So now everyone is going to jump up and down and start posting about the great, exciting and wonderful internet that allows to span the globe, spread the Torah, and hold all the worlds knowledge at the click of a mouse. "You can stop progress, you know, and in a few years you wont be able to order a pizza without the internet." Slowly, slowly more frum Jews are starting to use the internet because it is becoming alef bais of being part of the "real" world. And of course "you cant do business with out it".

So what is the solution? My conclusion, and I believe it is correct, is "accountability" One needs to be accountable for what he does on the internet. In other words, there needs to be a way for someone else to check out where you have been and what you are doing.

When Rabban Yohanan ben Zakkai fell ill, his disciples went in to visit him ... They said to him, Master, bless us. He said to them, may it be G-d's will that the fear of heaven shall be upon you like the fear of flesh and blood. His disciples said to him, is that all? He said to them, if only you can attain this! You can see how important this is, for when a man wants to commit a transgression, he says, “I hope no one will see me” .(Brachos 28b)

The problem with most internet usage is that the person is alone with no one watching what they are doing. One solution could be to only use a computer where everyone else is around, like in a yeshiva office. A more practical solution is to use a internet filter that along with actually filtering about 85% of the pornography it sends and email to a friend or parent with a list of the sites that have been visted. This is solution I have been using for years. I have been using netmop. It allows you to set up Accountability Monitoring Reports and sends an email to a friend. It does not send every url visited but rather just the urls that were blocked where the user was attempting to go to. This is enough to stop someone from searching around for garbage. There are other internet filters that send emails but what I like about this is it cant be shut off! You wouldn’t believe it, but their Accountability Monitoring Reports have stopped working for over a week now and they are in the process of fixing them. The yetzer hara is out for blood! If anyone wants the Global Yeshiva to be there "accountability partner" for what ever filter they use we will be happy to help out and receive their emails.

I am very pleased that this subject came up because I really wanted to write about it. This is a subject that really needs to be dealt with and if we put our heads together maybe we could come up with something. Does anyone use or know about the koshernet? We don’t have anything like that in Israel but I think we should. I just don’t know about the practicality of a "limited internet".

If I had the money I would like to set up a program with a public scoring system where others can view the surfing scores, based on keywords in urls and pages, of those who dare to join the system. The problem with such a system will be false positives could be very embarrassing.

The issue with "accountability programs" such as Covenant Eyes or Ayin Roah is that they each cost a pretty penny. For a person who already has a yetzor hora, and the yetzor hora is whispering in his ear- it will probably whisper in his ear that such programs will cost him a lot of money and empty out his pockets...

For a person who is already paying a good deal for the internet, they may not want to pay extra- even if it means becoming a yerei shmayim- because of the stronghold of the yetzor hora. ("What? I should pay money to have my privacy invaded???")

Is there any such thing as a free program that will monitor activity?

I know there has been a lot of talk amongst the gedolei hador about internet in the Jewish way of life- but not so much is publicized as factual halacha- something very important to us all. I wish the gedolei hador would get all get together and create ONE statement and PUBLICIZE it very widly spread so that we know exactly how to handle the situation in depth.

I know Lakewood has a ban on internet usage. Does anyone know of the specifics?

Hmmmmm this netmop looks pretty decent and isnt so expensive! Thanks Rabbi Mitterhoff!

B"H
Rabbi Mitterhoff, Bracha, and others,

Even if a person were to be subjected to "Accountability Monitoring Reports" and other programmes, and had a filtering service installed on his home or school computer (in order to block most adult-content URL's), this would only guarantee partial success. Ultimately, a person needs to work on himself. Otherwise, what would prevent him from going off to Internet Cafe, or to other computer rental offices to surf in those same forbidden domains?

David

David,

OF COURSE!

But to help the person help himself- he may need a bit of outside help.

A person who is in well standing with the community would probably not risk the chance of being seen in any of these places (internet cafe, computer renting places etc)

So remove the secrecy and you remove A LOT of the chance of trangsressing.

quote:

A person who is in well standing with the community would probably not risk the chance of being seen in any of these places (internet cafe, computer renting places etc)

So we should only read Torah essays online at such places when Hashem is not looking?

quote:

the internet is destroying thousands of Jewish souls

Rav Mitterhoff:

Is it possible that a statement like this (since our souls don't actually have the limit of a 4-number internet address) may sound good when preaching to a choir of internet-phoebics, but actually it fails to address the emes of what is this powerful communications mechanism Hashem has entrusted to our generation?

That is, perhaps, there is really no difference in a person mis-using a news stand's magazine shelf or a telephone or a computer network link? Just as a Jew looks carefully and discriminatingly at food before eating, (or books in a library) a Jew should be discriminating at what computer essays they read?

Rav Sutton wrote a beautiful essay (which thanks to the internet I was privileged to read online despite not ever being physically in his presence) the gist of which is that any technology we have today is merely reconnecting with a capability we had in Gan Eden.

Rob, your attempt at sarcasm brings clearly out the point that is trying to be made.

Just as one fears MAN finding out what he is up to, kal v'chomer Hashem yisborach who ALWAYS sees!

If someone wants to look at smut- they would not go to a place where they will be publically seen, even if they would risk it in their own home. Imagine if they realized at every second that Hashem was watching them.

The problem is that people INTELLECTUALLY know that Hashem is always watching, but they don't integrally FEEL that he is always there. As David said, a person needs to work on himself and his connection with Habore yisborach- but until he reaches that level- at least he can have the fear of man.

quote:

I am very pleased that this subject came up because I really wanted to write about it. This is a subject that really needs to be dealt with and if we put our heads together maybe we could come up with something. Does anyone use or know about the koshernet? We don’t have anything like that in Israel but I think we should. I just don’t know about the practicality of a "limited internet".

This is a subject I have put tremendous thought into since well before there was a koshernet, and even before ISP was a household ... TLA (three letter acronym).

If there shall be interest I have two plans suitable for discussion in their own threads. If a Gadol would give us the opportunity to engineer a solution to the perceived problems, and agree to endorse a design which solved such problems, we can have our Internet Protocols, and our various numerous internet services (of which HTTP is just one) interconnecting us freely with only those other computers in locations where we would also trust the kashrus of the food, yet allowing us to interface with the outside world on our own terms as needed, and with appropriate protections, much like wearing a gas mask when walking through a tuberculosis ward if that is the standard to which we want to insulate ourselves.

quote:

When Rabban Yohanan ben Zakkai fell ill, his disciples went in to visit him ... They said to him, Master, bless us. He said to them, may it be G-d's will that the fear of heaven shall be upon you like the fear of flesh and blood.

This fits with what I believe Rob and I are both getting at here (please correct me if I am wrong, Rob). We need to focus primarily on lifting ourself to a suitable level, so that our behaviour is consonant with what G-d wants of us. And we do this with the guidance of Torah and a judicious mulling over the words of the holy and wise.

This does not mean that we should not use whatever other means will assist us to be as we should.

It also does not mean we should overreact and ban what can be a marvellous aid to our task. If we were to ban everything that could be used to bad ends, what would we have left? We might be living in the open with no books or anything? And what of our selves? Oh, that's ok. Whew! We've been told not to kill ourselves.

Perhaps it is time to look again at the question posed: ie, What are the halachos of the internet?. Perhaps it is time to circle that question and poke at it from all sides. Such as asking whether we even need to ask this question; why we ask this question? And so forth. Of course we need to regulate our behaviour. That is obvious, given who we are. But we need to put our focus where it is needed.

One thing I am wondering is whether we are looking at remedial type actions, rather than laying good foundations. This could be compared to putting a fence at the top of a cliff where people often go, rather than running a fleet of ambulances constantly down below.

quote:

Originally posted by rob:

quote:

the internet is destroying thousands of Jewish souls

Rav Mitterhoff:

Is it possible that a statement like this (since our souls don't actually have the limit of a 4-number internet address) may sound good when preaching to a choir of internet-phoebics, but actually it fails to address the emes of what is this powerful communications mechanism Hashem has entrusted to our generation?

That is, perhaps, there is really no difference in a person mis-using a news stand's magazine shelf or a telephone or a computer network link? Just as a Jew looks carefully and discriminatingly at food before eating, (or books in a library) a Jew should be discriminating at what computer essays they read?

Rav Sutton wrote a beautiful essay (which thanks to the internet I was privileged to read online despite not ever being physically in his presence) the gist of which is that any technology we have today is merely reconnecting with a capability we had in Gan Eden.

Do you really believe that its no worse than a news stand or a telephone? Its like having a news stand in your bedroom! With all the fantastic and great qualties of the internet we cannot ignore the dangers.

Bracha - thanks for the links, I did not know about them. http://www.covenanteyes.com/ looks like an excellent solution that can help many. I really feel it is a mitzvah to tell others anout these programs.

quote:

Do you really believe that its no worse than a news stand or a telephone? Its like having a news stand in your bedroom! With all the fantastic and great qualties of the internet we cannot ignore the dangers.

Actually I think its far better than either...

The web content filter I use, guidescope.com, limits my own browser being directed against my wishes or will to view advertising content which is likely based upon smut.

My own telephone usually rings in the middle of important activities such as chavrusa learning or a meal or a discussion with family by a telemarketter.

With computing I have some programatic control with logical rules I can specify, and I can limit my communications to only those I trust.

Absolutely, this is better than having no control over what I caused to see or hear or react to in other forums.

And we can do so much better still using technologies and precedents from elsewhere in Jewish behavior...

For example, why not implement in programatic logic some of the rules of community standards for which kashrus symbols we trust.

Here's an example of how programatic logic can improve real life for kosher consumers:

Within food, I believe the right place to trigger upon kashrus alerts is with a personal barcode scanner and a live-linked device with access to recent alerts. Ideally a supermarket checkout line with a kosher clientele could recognize by my preferences, which I might set up on my barcode key fob ID number, to bring up a warning if any of the items I am ringing through do not have a recognized hechsher associated with their barcode, and if there were a kashrus alert on that item, such as an unauthoried hechsher.

Now if I inadvertently grab two items that I think are the same, and one of them is similar but lacking a hechsher, do I really want your style of monitoring system to fail to give me th benefit of the doubt - flag it as an attempt to eat treif?

Rather I need the early warning system may flash a holographic picture of Yitzchak Avinu to remind me if a food item is not within my community standard.

Similarly, if my web proxy server implemented a filter which looked for a cyborspace digital signature attesting to the appropriateness of a web page content, I could have such an early warning system.

If it asked me if I want to override a warning, then perhaps log my statistics.... but your term "tried to access improper content" is ot giving the benefit of the doubt that some spammer inserted a web link into my email and I inadvertently let my email reader access it.

We can do far better by using our standards of kashrus and community standards than any monitoring software from outside. And if not now, then when.

There is also Yeshivanet that is not a filter. You send in the websites that you want and they check it out for you if it's Kosher and only then they let you use it. This would be enough for most people who have their twenty or thirty sites that they need (Of course you can add on when the need arises) It would stop just Stam surfing and it will get you every site that you'll actually need, to go shopping or pay bills (How many sites do you need other than Global Yeshiva? )

My Rosh Kollel told me about being involved with teaching Torah over the Internet, he said that the more "Kosher sites" out there to keep people busy when they're on the Internet. People are not going to be attracted to the Internet just to learn Torah. It's those that are already on the Internet should have constructive ways of being on-line.

I don't think that the expense (though I don't think they're too inhibiting) of these things should be a problem, since as Frum Jews, we pay more for Kosher foods and Kosher schools, what's another 5-10 $ extra a month that would insure a Kosher atmosphere. It takes away the excuse "but what can I do and survive without the Internet?"

quote:

Originally posted by rob:

Rav Sutton wrote a beautiful essay (which thanks to the internet I was privileged to read online despite not ever being physically in his presence) the gist of which is that any technology we have today is merely reconnecting with a capability we had in Gan Eden.

Rob, where would one be able to find the link to the essay?

I think the essays can be found here:

http://www.geulah.org/9acatalog.htm#Self

If you scroll down to "Eight Key Essays", #3 is the one which I believe discusses this point.

Rav Sutton on that web site posts his email address of a_sutton@netvision.net.il and I have found him to be quite accessible and generous with his time.

Perusing my copy of his essay I don't see the exact quote and I think perhaps it was his personal explanation of the concept to me bolstered by this essay which I am remembering.

His essays are surely fascinating to read. And of course quotes his rabbinic sources.