Hi

As a follow up to discussion I made with a Jewish gay I wanted to know what the attitude is towards gays in Judaism? He told me that it's different between Israel and the Jewish communities in the USA, especially in NY, and some Jewish families ban their children.

Are they accepted in the Jewish community? Is it considered as a shame for the family? Are they allowed to be married?

thanks

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Rabbi Mitterhoff,

Look at the following verse in Vayikra (Leviticus), Chapter 20, Verse 13.

From http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=9921&showrashi=true

13. And a man who lies with a male as one would with a woman both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon themselves.

Does that verse apply to women, too?

The verse cited does not apply to women. The verse on adultery applies to both men and women. This particular set of verses apply to Jews and non-Jews.

The Jews have not had capital punishment for some two thousand years.
As for excluding someone from the community, there are many laws in Judiasm and people who violate them may or may not be excluded by a community of Jews depending on geography and outlook, a Jewish community along the Amazon river may overlook certain behaviors. However, there is no systematic way of dealing with individuals who publicly commit criminal actions like theft or murder. About the only thing I can think of is that a Cohen who committed murder is not allowed to bless the congregation.
Many communities deny burial in the community burial plot if their public behavior was objectionable, e.g. the Jews of Argentina refused to bury pimps, so they started their own cementary. Some congregations will deny an aliyah. It is also possible that one's testimony is not accepted in court proceeding, although I can't recall of any recent case where a professional gambler's testimony wasn't accepted.

Bottom line: Judiasm is religion that belongs to the community. Although one community may exclude someone, another community may accept him. The only person that was formally excluded from a community in recent times was Spinoza. That doesn't mean that some groups aren't constantly putting other groups they don't agree with as being excluded from their group. That happens all the time.

B"H

Jack,

The problem that you have mentioned is a problem that is greeted differently by different people. That the Torah forbids such practices is obvious to all, and goes without saying. I tend to think that such practices are naturally abhorred by all Jews, and if there are Jews who have been effected by such a problem, this is a reflection of their society and upbringing. As it is written in one of the prophets: ונתערבו בגוים וילמדו מעשיהם
"But they have mixed with the gentiles, and have learned their ways."

A certain Mishnah teaches us that a single Jewish male should not teach boy children. When it was asked whether it was because of some fear of sodomite practices, the answer was "No," Israel was NOT "chashoud be'mishkav zachur." Rather, it was because of each child's mother.

I suppose only a sincere desire to go straight, and a slow conditioning of that person, where one exercises temperance (קור רוח) – not indulging, on the one hand, in forbidden license, yet, not willing to compromise, on the other hand, his sincere love and friendship for his friend – will that person ever pull through and be freed from such lusts. True happiness does not come from such sensuous relationships. But a man is made happy by having true and sincere friends.

Secondly, a man should aspire to have children of his own. Let him look to young women who are, both, chaste and modest in their character. If he looks hard enough, he'll find the right woman for himself.

David

quote:

I tend to think that such practices are naturally abhorred by all Jews, and if there are Jews who have been effected by such a problem, this is a reflection of their society and upbringing. As it is written in one of the prophets: ונתערבו בגוים וילמדו מעשיהם
"But they have mixed with the gentiles, and have learned their ways."

Wisely addressed, and I think for purposes of this discussion specifically, is directly on point and conclusively inarguable. Even among the "Orthodox" of our community, the clothing the young women are permitted to wear is (to my mind) inexcusable. "Nape to Toes", my grandmother always said, "or don't leave this house...you would shame us all". I settle for collarbone to toes, but I see clothing that undergarments should do better than in coverage out here. I realize this is slightly off topic, but it is a clear and visual verification of the assimilation issue. Seems to show up in clothing before anything else. Sorry if I am ranting--it is a real sore spot with me.

Coverage should be from head to the ankles. Jewish women who are not virgins should cover their head since a woman's hair is nakedness (ervah). And when you say to toe you obviously mean long dresses and not pants.

Yes. This is an Orthodox forum--so I expect people to assume that. I was specifically referring to the bodily coverings, as many ofhte married women still are coveringtheir heads--but wearing short skirts...*sigh*

The one does not excuse the other.

I think it is difficult,if not, impossible to find tznius clothes in the stores.

Just to go back to the original question; Torah condemns homosexual acts, but people with homosexual tendencies are a different thing. A person can be homosexual without indulging in homosexual acts. That person is okay halachically. Now when such a person performs homosexual acts there needs to be witnesses and deterence etc just like in the case of adultery. Circumstances like this never arise in real life because we don't have any sort of adultery patrol. So in a practical sense, a gay person who has not "come out" and is homosexual in secret can blend in nicely into a Jewish community. Of course, when he flaunts himself even when he is not indulging in homosexual acts it creates a problem for everyone....Tzniut, I guess. That's why I marvel at Reform shuls that show up en mass at gay pride festivals....nuts!

quote:

Originally posted by Raybin:
I think it is difficult,if not, impossible to find tznius clothes in the stores.

Depends on neighborhood.

it is difficult especially for people like me--who are far from community, but really, what we cannot find, we make ourselves---and with the advent of the internet--there is really no excuse not to dress halachically, whenit can be delivered to your doorstep with the push of a button.

Moreover,there is never any excuse to see a Jewish girl with a mini (skirt) on. Period. But I have even seen it in Yisrael...oy.

quote:

Originally posted by Avi d'Israeli:
A person can be homosexual without indulging in homosexual acts. That person is okay halachically.

Avi diIsraeli,

I wouldn't exactly say that he is "okay halachically." While he might not be stoned by the sanhedrin (in olden days) for having such fantasies, he is still going up against an exegetical principle that was taught by the Rabbis and which equates "the thought with the deed."

The Rabbis learned this principle from a verse in the Torah (Devorim 7:25), which reads:
לא תחמוד כסף וזהב עליהם ולקחת לך

"Thou shalt not covet the silver and gold upon them, and take [them] unto thyself, etc."

By way of an exegesis, the Torah would have made a person responsible, as it were, for coveting the gold and silver on idols - as though he had already taken them! For it says in the past tense, ולקחתָ לך - literally meaning, "...and [be as though] you have taken [them] to yourself."

David

quote:

Originally posted by David Ben-Abraham:

quote:

Originally posted by Avi d'Israeli:
A person can be homosexual without indulging in homosexual acts. That person is okay halachically.

Avi diIsraeli,

I wouldn't exactly say that he is "okay halachically." While he might not be stoned by the sanhedrin (in olden days) for having such fantasies, he is still going up against an exegetical principle that was taught by the Rabbis and which equates "the thought with the deed."

R' David, I think you are being a bit harsh. We are talking about someone whose natural tendencies are towards a person of the same sex but who does not give into his urges. He cannot help what his instincts tell him and so he should be praised for his self control.

David--
Agreed. Moreover--it could be explained that there is a huge difference between a man having a more effeminite personality (like Ya'akov who seemed to enjoy home-bound activities and being with his mother inthe kitchen, unlike his "manly" hunter-outdoorsman brother, etc.) and having homosexual tendencies (as specific homosexual thoughts and covetsousness).

I don't think the term "effeminite" is appropriate when referring to Our patriarch, Jacob. There are two types of men, those who are more learned in things of G-d, and those who are more learned in things of nature. It wasn't that Jacob was effeminate but that he chose to dwell peacefully in his father's home, the same way that Isaac and Abraham did, being dwellers of tents. Jacob, who was still a boy who needed the shelter of his mother's love, especially to save him from Esau's agression. I am sure Jacob felt much safer insided the tent. I think often times homosexuality is more of a masculine, agressive trait than it is effeminate. If you could call it that. When Jacob finally matured we see that he no longer needed the shelter of his mother's favor. And worked very hard to care for his wives and his family.

I think Avi is referring to those that are an ONNes, and that's what they're naturally, yet since they stop themselves from doing the act, that's not a problem. Of course having fantasies in all types of these things are forbidden, and thus someone should adjust his energies in ways that would prevent any of these thoughts.

quote:

When Jacob finally matured we see that he no longer needed the shelter of his mother's favor. And worked very hard to care for his wives and his family.

Raybin:


I don't think it was maturity that made him leave his mother's arms and tent--read it again, far from it.

I think you are using effiminite as a bad term.I am clearly making the distinction that it is NOT a bad term, nor negative in any way. Some men are built for warfare, or other hard labor via their build or personality. Others are quite skilled at finer work of a more delicate nature, requiring a great deal of patience...hence effeminite--there is NO SHAME in being one OR the other. My uncle is a bookworm, works for hours in engineering tasks at his desk, and has very finely detailed hobbies such as miniature scalse shipbuilding. He loves to be in the home, and even to help in fixing it up decorative wise,and is a fabulous cook (like Jacob) --so what?? THat is effeminite. He is a fabulous provider, a fantastic father and uncle to me and the girls and no one thinks the lower of him. My father couldn't darn a sock without stabbing himself clean through and loves military paraphernalia--so what?? He is a good dad, etc. Why do you take offense at one of our patriarchs having one persuasion over the other? So long as they aren't homosexual in their tendencies, surely there is room for all manner of expertise and inclinations inthe world. As I said, ther is a HUGE difference between being more effeminite and being gay. Huge. I am not threatened by either kind of man, (ultra-masculine nor effeminite) nor is it an insult to be of either persuasion.

quote:

Originally posted by Raybin:
I think it is difficult,if not, impossible to find tznius clothes in the stores.

I disagree. There are many appropriate clothes out there for purchase today - for more than there used to be. If all else fails, one can always make purchases online - there are a number of website that carry specifically tznius clothing and then there are websites which happen to carry tznius clothing (for example: www.landsend.com - always has tznius shirts and they also carry long skirts. In fact, with a little luck , you can make purchases through their overstocks page and get the clothes for much less).