Orthodox Women are not allowed to swim? Yet shouldn't they learn, as they might require to save their lives one day by swimming ashore from a sinking ship, or diving into a river to save their child...

Orthodox women are indeed allowed to swim, but they must do so out of sight of men. Many swimming pools in Orthodox areas and also kosher hotels have women only sessions.

Yisroel,
Are there three separate issues here? That of swimming itself, that of tzniut and that of yichud? As long as a woman is tzniut surely she can swim in the presence of men? No? So if a woman is dressed properly couldn't she swim in the presence of men? That's one issue. The other is that of yichud....swimming "with" men, sharing the hottub with men. Am I off the wall here?

I dont really think there is a tznuis way to be dressed when swimming. As soon as a person is completely wet- the clothes cling to flesh. This would render the clothing although completely tznuis when dry- completely not tznuis when wet.

As for intermingling between men and women in a pool- I believe that is also forbidden in a category of its own.

Bracha,
Surely it is possible to design fabrics and layer them in such a way that they won't cling to the female form?

quote:

As soon as a person is completely wet- the clothes cling to flesh.

I learned a rule that water itself can be a covering.

The context we were discussing it in was a serious discussion following a humorous discussion of how Hashem sent various coast guard and sailing ships to rescue a drowning man who had faith that Hashem would save him. The punchline of that story is Hashem asks the man "Who do you think sent the [boats you turned away]?".

The serious discussion following included learning that water itself could be counted as a covering suitable for saying a bracha or saying Shema.

Perhaps while she is in the water and keeping a physical distance that the light cannot pass through the water clearly or brightly enough the wet clothing aspect is not quite as stringent as this?

How she would tzniusly get into or out of the water is another story, and if she is required to cover her hair, etc, so its probably quite impractical.

Surely a private secluded cove on a private lake or pond while technically the same body of water would not have a yichud problem, and might provide enough privacy for practical swimming opportunities?

I understand that some women can use a secluded pond or other body of water as a natural mikvah, so it must be that the tznius aspect is based in part on practicality of darkness and seclusion.

Speaking of making snowmen in another thread, related to tznius dress for swimming, I was wondering if anyone here would have practical advise for how a young Jewish woman, older girl, should dress tzniusly for playing in the snow in below freezing weather?

Are there any styles of insulated snow suits that are in the form of a skirt or dress?

Or perhaps community standards in communities which do not permit pants, do permit thick padded bulky snow pants?

My community did not have enough ladies outside in the winter to be able to determine what is our community standard in this regard.

As I'm not a designer- I dont know... Anything is possible...

However, even IF it were possible, swimming with men would still not be allowed as for the issue of intermingling; according to my understanding.

Also- think of this- tznuis would need to be catered to when not only getting out of water and revealing the close fit of the clothing, but also under the water- if for instance one submerges and swims with goggles underneath- that creates another issue- for clothing to be tznuis, there needs to be a skirt- if wearing a skirt underwater, a current could come along and move the skirt in a not-tzuisdik manner, it would cause a situation for the people submerged who might perhaps see.

I think simply the concept of men and women swimming together is not tzuisdik. Even if it were completely possible to be tzuisly garbed in the process. Tznuis goes far beyond the rhelm of clothing.

As for the one thing I dont understand about women swimming... I have seen women dressed in a bathing suit and wearing a snood to cover their hair. Although around only other women and technically allowed to be dressed in a way not considered tznuis- why the extra measure to cover the hair around other women?

In Yoma 47a there is related that a woman by the name of Kimchit merited to raise 7 sons who were kohainim gedolim because as she said, "Even the beams of my house never saw the hair of my head."

It doesn't say they never saw her elbow or knee, but rather the hair of her head. Although we know of the erva status of a married woman's hair- I do say I have to wonder- is there a greatly elavated status of hair above all other body parts to be covered?

As I'm not yet married, I haven't delved deeply into this subject.

I think the halacha of water being an acceptable covering is not considered a halacha of tznuis except in regards to toiveling in a mikveh and making the bracha.

In such an instance, its a personal experiance that is not ben adam lchavero. Whereas the main issue of tznuis in day to day life is INTERpersonal- dealing with other people.

Perhaps the reason for water sufficing as a covering for making a bracho in the mikveh is because it serves as a seperation between the head and the rest of the body- causing the mind to not "see" the body.

Whereas if water would be the only covering for the body while others are around, such as swimming, other people would still be able to physically see the erva. And that would not be tznuis.

quote:

tznuis would need to be catered to when not only getting out of water and revealing the close fit of the clothing, but also under the water- if for instance one submerges and swims with goggles underneath-

A psak I received when visiting a community with a different community standard where the rebetzin wore jeans and did not cover her hair was that if she is not tznius then the obligation falls to men to not look.

(answering questions of a precocious child such as how natural her sheitel looked was another interesting aspect of our visit)

I might extrapolate from this that scuba diving or other underwater activities that men should keep one shark-length or so distance unless they have a doctor's note attesting to the myopia?

Even if that is so- that the obligation falls upon the man not to look, there is a mitzvah that says we do not set a stumbling block before the blind.

As women, we know that men have eyes and we dont want them to see what will be "a stumbling block" for them- so technically, aside from the obligation of walking tznuisly before Hashem at all times- although the men have the obligation to NOT look- we have the obligation to not supply them with that which would cause them to look!

It all goes hand in hand...

quote:

Originally posted by rob:
A psak I received when visiting a community with a different community standard where the rebetzin wore jeans and did not cover her hair

A different community standard indeed!

Just for those on the forum that dont know, *coughmyselfcough* what exactly is "myopia"?

Shortsightedness

Yay! Now I can add a new word to my mental dictionary. Thanks!

So is anyone making a distinction between "swimming in the presence of men" and "swimming with men"?
Bracha;
Do the women you mention actually swim with their snoods on?

quote:

Originally posted by rob:

I might extrapolate from this that scuba diving or other underwater activities that men should keep one shark-length or so distance unless they have a doctor's note attesting to the myopia?

How long is a shark-length? And what kind of shark are we using to determine this length in our terms? A hammerhead? Great white? Tiger shark? and what age? maybe a baby? or a fullgrown one? and what age does a shark reach adulthood?

...And if one has a Dr's note about their "myopia" they should pull it out of their wet suit when they near a woman and say, "the Dr says i cant see you!!! its okay!" ?

lol.

Okay, I'm having too much fun with this...

quote:

Originally posted by MosheYisraeli:
Bracha;
Do the women you mention actually swim with their snoods on?

Well, most women i have seen usually wear a swim cap- that way it doesn't get all soggy. But i have seen a few that wear a snood into the water and just keep their head out while submerging the rest.


says with a greenland accent: "i dont swim- i only dogpaddle..." (wonders how many people pick up on that last comment...)

Do the most machmir communities even forbid pants for women worn under a skirt, as some Muslim women do. If such is not forbidden, couldn't a modified configuration work for prancing around in the snow building snowmen?

Pants under a skirt is of the more lenient opinions of tznuis whereas the Chareidi communities dont really hold by pants under a skirt.

Again I HIGHLY recommend for any home with a Jewish female- the book, "Oz v'Hadar Levusha- Modesty- An Adorment for Life". by Rabbi Pesach Eliyahu Falk.

http://www.feldheim.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?item=0-87306-874-2&type=store

However, when a situation comes up, there is of course, no better answer than one would get from asking their LOR. (local orthodox rabbi)