I was talking to a woman online who claims that she had a Kosher (Orthodox) conversion but at a later time the Bet Din annuled it. Is this possible? I had always thought that once a gentile becomes Jewish he/she was always considered just as Jewish as we are.

quote:

Originally posted by Avraham Parkinson:
I was talking to a woman online who claims that she had a Kosher (Orthodox) conversion but at a later time the Bet Din annuled it. Is this possible? I had always thought that once a gentile becomes Jewish he/she was always considered just as Jewish as we are.

I'm sure you're right. However, if the Bet Din received evidence of the convert's conduct at the time of the conversion that suggested it wasn't sincerely undertaken in the first place, then they could well say that the conversion never took place.

There is somewhat of a cuse celebre going on in London at the moment. A woman converted in Israel and now lives in London. She applied to have her son go to a Jewish School and the London Bet Din are querying the validity of her conversion (and therefore the Jewish status of her son).

Shalom Avraham,

It is impossible for a Jew to stop being a Jew. Judaism is not a religion. Judaism is a "bris," which means a "covenant," which is a "contract."

This is a contract like any other contract, with performance rewards, penalties for contractual breach, and lots of small print. It is by the clauses of this contract that Jews will be judged and there is no "escape" clause to be found.

Here is what I think is going on. Beis dinim are looking at conversions where the convert clearly failed to live up to his obligation from the outset. They may take the position that this person therefore never converted. I myself would have great difficulty accepting this once an halachic beis din allows a conversion to go through.

On the other hand, I know of at least one beis din that sets the conversion up with a one year trial period. If the convert is keeping the laws at the end of the year, his conversion was considered genuine contractually. If not, the conversion is retroactively annulled. I have no problem with this because it is contractually agreed between the convert and the beis din, just as all of Judaism is contractual.

Food for thought.

Regards, Eliahu

The Gemarah in Yevamos says in 47b that if a Ger goes back, he’s still a Jew, so he’s a heretic Jew. Yet, if he never really accepted the Mitzvos and never done it from the get go, it seems that the rabanan Paskin it wasn’t a real conversion. I think the proof from this is that Kusim were converts from lions (and not real converts) where Tosfos says in many places (including in Yevomos over there) that they never stopped worshipping idols, so the conversion wasn’t good.

I wonder about making a Geirus with a condition. Since all Conditions must be similar to the condition of the children of Gad and Reuvein, it must be something that you can appoint a messenger to do it for you. That’s why conditions cannot uproot a Chalitzah. The process of Geirus cannot be done through someone else. (The Ger needs to do Milah Tvilah and accepting Mitzvos, and can’t have someone else do it for him) so why would any condition work?

Shalom Rav Chaim,

My problem with retroactivity, is that a beis din can also CREATE an aveira retroactively if they annul the conversion, and the ger had successfully kept a Shabbos with the intention of doing so.

It is my thought that for the purpose of conversion, the "intent" of the ger has no weight, and the "intent" of the beis din carries ALL the weight. I say this because once there is a Jew, there is no way out of being a Jew.

Look at it like this. Moshe converted the erev rav, and Shlomo converted his wives. MANY from both groups should never have been converted, yet their conversions stood. It seems to me that it was Moshe and Shlomo who sealed the conversions in the eyes of Hashem and not the geirim.

Ergo, a beis din takes on an awesome responsibility when it converts, and needs to do excellent diligence to insure they are dealing with legitimate candidates.

I hear people say too often, that Judaism is not a religion it is a way of life. I do not like this message. It makes sweet sounding what could be a very bitter pill.

I think it would be helpful if the message got out there that Judaism is not a religion. Judaism is a CONTRACT on how one is required to live, and once the contract is signed...it is forever...like it or not.

Kol tuv, Eliahu

With regard to Geirus with a condition, I recall a case many years ago here in the UK where a woman's conversion in Israel wasn't accepted as there had been a condition attached to it that she continue to reside in Israel, which she didn't. (She also went and married a Kohen, which didn't help matters!)

At the time I did wonder at the efficacy of this condition.

Shalom Stephen,

That sounds like an impossible condition. Marrying the Kohein is irrelevent to this, and no different than answering the telephone on Saturday morning.

I have never heard of a condition that forces a person to do MORE than keep required Jewish law. I would question that this ever really happened.

Just my thoughts, Eliahu

It happened alright. I recall the lady's name was Paula Cohen.

Dear Eliyahu,
All the cases that you brought is talking about that they kept Judaism for some time and the afterwards they went off. This I agree that they can never get out of it, like I brought from the Gemarah in Yevomos. but if they didn't keep it all, then it shows us right away that they were missing a main ingredient to the conversion, which is Kabalos Hamitzvos, that we see it wasn't sincere

What are you going to do with Tosfos about Kusim? He says that since they kept on worshipping idols, their conversion was not a conversion. (The Man D'Amer that said they were real Gerim held that they converted again later on.) Why don't we say that after the conversion there is no way out?

Shalom Rav Chaim,

You make some excellent points and I have allowed myself some time to think about them.

Let me say up front I think we agree on most of this subject, and there is only one area really under discussion.

First where we agree. You will correct me should I be incorrect.

1) There is no conversion without a Torah observant beis din.

2) Once one becomes a Jew it is forever. There is no way out, just as there is no way out for a born Jew.

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The area under discussion is precisely "when" has a convert attained this status of "Jew"?

I wish to state that I have made some educated extrapolations from details that I know, but educated guesses are still guesses, so I accept in advance that I can make errors here in part or in full.

I used the example of at least part of the Erev Rav converted by Moshe not being suitable for conversion.

I used the example of at least part of Shlomo's wives who converted, also not being suited for conversion.

You Rabbi pointed out that in both of these cases, they convert had proper intentions in the beginning, and so their conversion stood.

Then you brought an example of your own, the Kusim, who did not have proper intentions from the beginning and so Tosafos states their conversion was not a conversion.

All that you have said has great merit.

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The issue that needs resolving is whether or not someone converted by an halachic beis din, but without proper intention at the time of the conversion has become a Jew?

You say he has not, citing the Kusim as an example. I now move my position from "Yes," he is a Jew, to "unsure/now a gray area."

Here is what goes through my mind. To begin with, when looked at in greater depth, Tosafos does not always hold up, or we find we did not quite understand what was being said.

I don't claim that is the case, just that it happens on occasion.

Here are my concerns.

Let us say someone converts without the proper intention, and nobody knows it at the time. That person marries and has children. If the marriage is retroactively nullified then aveiros are being retroactively applied to the spouse. Is this really happening, or perhaps there is more we need to find out?

OR, a person converts without the proper intention and is therefore not Jewish. The person learns more, and now has the correct intentions and observes everything meticulously. BUT the person wasn't Jewish at the conversion, and therefore is not Jewish now. If the person marries, there will be countless aveiros. If the person has children, the children will be accepted by everyone as Jewish, they will marry, and everyone will be happy, EXCEPT that the Jewish people will be filling up with non-Jews who everyone thinks are Jewish.

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NOW, if my contention were correct, that an halachic beis din makes the conversion, and not the convert, then none of these problems can happen. There would be no question about marrying a non-Jew or having non-Jewish children.

You see my skepticism.

If the intention and/or actions of the convert determine if he is Jewish, then how can we be 100% certain that ANY convert is Jewish before we entrust our sons or daughters to marry them?

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I do not say you are incorrect rabbi, for up to this moment your sourcing is one step ahead of me. I simply am not certain that this analysis of the Kusim will stand up when all sources are weighed.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is a small area of the overall geirus picture, but because of where it is positioned, the potential effects are dynamic.

Thank you much for what you have written thus far.

Bircat Hashem alecha, Eliahu

First, Eliyahu, I would like to thank you for your participation, it really raises the level of the forums.

Second, I must comment on what you said “To begin with, when looked at in greater depth, Tosafos does not always hold up.” We cannot say such a thing. We must always assume the mistake is with our logic. We don’t push Tosfos from the Halacha just because we have a question on him.

Before we go to the answer we must answer another question. Why do we accept any Ger? How do we know he really accepted the Mitzvos sincerely? There are two Mehalchim I can think of. The first is that there is either a Chazaka or Rov that he was sincere, or else they wouldn’t have come to beis din. So we assume for those reasons that it was a good accepting. Since there can never be witnesses of any kind to this since it’s all in the mind, we can never Halachicly contradict it. So we’ll always be Machzik it was done correctly. Even if the person claims later on there was never a good accepting, he’s not believed. For according to his words he’s a Goy, and a goy cannot say witness. This is the reason A Ger cannot be believed that his conversion was no good for one reason or another, as the Gemarah says over there in Yevomos 47a. So just like we drink milk because of a Rov, even though it could be from a Treifa, and there is no way to verify, but it has a din Kosher on it. So to all of them have a Din Jews on them, no matter what the intention was.

The second M’halach is that when he said that he accepted, even if he didn’t really, it’s D’varm Sheblev Sheina Dvarim. (thoughts doesn’t count.) SO the conversion is a proper conversion regardless what he thought.

But all this must be only if for some time the Mitzvos were being kept. If it wasn’t kept at all, this would make a Rayasa in the Chazaka or Rov, since right away he never kept anything. Also, since there is an action that tells us that it wasn’t sincere, it’s no longer just D’varim SheB’lev, but actually the action proves it. See Chulin 39b about Sofo mochiach T’chilaso (If a regular Jew shects and then proclaims it to be for Avodah Zara, do we say what he did right afterwards reflects on what he already did. ) Even those that argue, that is only there we he had a Chezkas Kashrus all along, so we don’t brake the Chazakah until we see something is broken, but over here the Ger never did anything to Machzik himself as someone that does Mitzvos, so when he goes out right away and goes to McDonalds it proves that his original accepting was not really an accepting. If there was some time in the middle that the Ger did do Mitzvos, that is Machzik himself as a doer of Mitzvos, so if he goes off the Derech, we’ll say until this point he was sincere and now he had a change of heart, so we have no reason to go against what we were Machzik and say it was no good from the get go.So we say he’s a Yisrael Mumar.

Shalom Rav Chaim,

Continuing...

>>>First, Eliyahu, I would like to thank you for your participation, it really raises the level of the forums.<<<

Thank you. I always try to place the hidden reader on a status at least equal to the person I am responding to.

>>>Second, I must comment on what you said: [To begin with, when looked at in greater depth, Tosafos does not always hold up.] We cannot say such a thing. We must always assume the mistake is with our logic. We don't push Tosfos from the Halacha just because we have a question on him.<<<

Sometimes there are other factors at play as well. However, I agree with the essence of what you said, and the way you expressed this idea is superior to my choice of expression.

>>>but it has a din Kosher on it. So to all of them have a Din Jews on them, no matter what the intention was.<<<

>>>The second M'halach is that when he said that he accepted, even if he didn't really, it's D'varm Sheblev Sheina Dvarim. (thoughts doesn't count.) SO the conversion is a proper conversion regardless what he thought.<<<

I am fine with these two points. It is the next point I will have trouble with. With these, all I need know is who the beis din was who performed the conversion. If there were three halachically qualified Jews, I can close the book.

Your next point sends shivers down my spine.

>>>But all this must be only if for some time the Mitzvos were being kept. If it wasn't kept at all, this would make a Rayasa in the Chazaka or Rov, since right away he never kept anything. Also, since there is an action that tells us that it wasn't sincere, it's no longer just D'varim SheB'lev, but actually the action proves it. See Chulin 39b about Sofo mochiach T'chilaso (If a regular Jew shects and then proclaims it to be for Avodah Zara, do we say what he did right afterwards reflects on what he already did. ) Even those that argue, that is only there we he had a Chezkas Kashrus all along, so we don’t brake the Chazakah until we see something is broken, but over here the Ger never did anything to Machzik himself as someone that does Mitzvos, so when he goes out right away and goes to McDonalds it proves that his original accepting was not really an accepting. If there was some time in the middle that the Ger did do Mitzvos, that is Machzik himself as a doer of Mitzvos, so if he goes off the Derech, we’ll say until this point he was sincere and now he had a change of heart, so we have no reason to go against what we were Machzik and say it was no good from the get go.So we say he’s a Yisrael Mumar.<<<

I do not YET accept that we are understanding this correctly.

This isn't the same as a one time cheit of eating treif what was thought kosher. We are speaking about a constant violation every moment of every day, carried throughout the generations, child to child, to grandchild, to great grandchild, massively damaging our Jewish heritage.

A geiress is converted and 20 minutes later eats at McDonalds. Nobody sees her. She has great pangs of anguish that he did this, and NEVER violates halacha again. However, apparently she wasn't Jewish. NOBODY ever knows. NOBODY ever questions, and there are children, and grandchildren, none of whom are Jewish.

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In my mind, this cannot be. In my mind there are very rough edges here which need serious rounding.

Best wishes always, Eliahu

Quote “This isn't the same as a one time cheit of eating treif what was thought kosher. We are speaking about a constant violation every moment of every day, carried throughout the generations, child to child, to grandchild, to great grandchild, massively damaging our Jewish heritage.”

That doesn’t bother me. What is eternity but millions of single times? What ever is good for one time is good for eternity. So, Halachically speaking, I don’t find it disturbing.

Quote “A geiress is converted and 20 minutes later eats at McDonalds. Nobody sees her. She has great pangs of anguish that he did this, and NEVER violates halacha again. However, apparently she wasn't Jewish. NOBODY ever knows. NOBODY ever questions, and there are children, and grandchildren, none of whom are Jewish.”

First I can say, if nobody ever saw here, so it’s further Dvarim Shebilev, and therefore not counted. (What’s the difference if she thought it in the hidden parts of her mind or did an action away from where people see.)

This is not the end of your problems with this Inyin with our case. How about the case of finding a baby in the streets where there is Rov Yisrael (mostly Jews in the area.) See Kesuvos 15b. Rashi seems to say that we only don’t let her marry a Kohein, but a Yisrael she would be able to marry. Even that the Rambam argues, but it’s only a DRabanan Svara because they made a Maalah for Yuchsim (probably for your concern.) He would allow her to marry a Yisrael if there were two Rovs that support it (most of the city and most of the caravans.) In any case, all these case still have a definite possibility that the child’s a Goy, yet Halachicly we consider them Jews at least from the Torah and sometimes even Midarabanan. What would be the case then?

How will it work after 120 when someone finds themselves Goyim? I don’t know. But it’s Hashem’s problem, not the Poseik’s (so I would let him take care of it. Theologically speaking, it could be that he considers them Jews since that was the outcome of the Halacha.)

Shalom Rav Chaim,

>>>That doesn't bother me. What is eternity but millions of single times? What ever is good for one time is good for eternity. So, Halachically speaking, I don't find it disturbing.<<<

It disturbs me for the same reason it doesn't disturb you. Whatever is bad one time, is bad for eternity, AND has ripple effects throughout eternity.

A Jewish man does not marry a non-Jewish woman one time and expect there will not be ripples if the children successfully pass themselves off as Jews, and marry other Jews.

>>>How will it work after 120 when someone finds themselves Goyim? I don't know. But it's Hashem's problem, not the Poseik's (so I would let him take care of it. Theologically speaking, it could be that he considers them Jews since that was the outcome of the Halacha.<<<

Yes, this was Avraham's dilemma. If Yitzchak becomes a korban then there is no way the human intellect can conceive for Hashem to accomplish what He said He would accomplish.

What did Avraham do? He did as Hashem said, leaving the ball in Hashem's court. It's His problem now...and He will solve it.

This is the one answer that is logical to me, that it is beyond my seichal but Hashem will solve it.

It this answer satisfying to me? NO! I think there is more. Do I KNOW there is more? NO! I feel very strongly however that there is...somewhere.

Kol tuv, Eliahu

My reading of the Rambam and the Shulchan Aruch gives me the strong impression that you can not pasul someone's geirus if there were kosher witnesses and a kosher Bais Din. This includes a situation in which we see the new convert eating treif and desecrating Shabbos soon afterwards. He is a Jew who is sinning. You may think that he obviously wasn't sincere in his conversion. Maybe. Still if he went through milah, tevila and kabbalas mitzvot that established a fact. His true intentions were devarim shebeleiv. There are exceptions. If we have testimony that he told someone before hand: "I don't really mean this I just want to marry my Jewish girlfriend," that may undo the whole thing. If the witnesses or the Bais Din weren't halachically acceptable that may pasul the geirus. The Gemara in Shabbos actually mentions a case in which someone converted bain haakum and no one pasuled that conversion they just talked about what korban he has to bring for not knowing about Shabbos.

The Rov, however, may not have done a ger a favor by converting him without being sure of his sincerity. Now he's chayav - misa, sekila, malkus...you name it for all of the aveiros he's commiting while before he wasn't.

SamK

Sam,
I thought that the intent of a Goy did not count. Only the intent of a Jew counts. So if the Geyr went through with the conversion, his intent became irrelevant and was subsumed by the intent of the va'ad of Rabbonim who converted him. So come rain or come shine, he is a Jew and we are all stuck with him, because of the intent of the Rabbonim, not because of his intent.

Moshe,

Not 100% true. If we have eidus that he did it insincerely we have a case to posul it. It's rare that we have such eidus. I discussed this with a few Rabbanim when I did a dvar Torah on the subject. The Rambam and Shulchan Aruch discuss non observance and cases in which we now have a sofek about this geir due to his behavior. They don't, however, posul the geirus and his wife would need a get to be free of marriage to him. After all it's a sofek d'Oraysa.

like most things in life, and particularly most things in Jewish life; there is kosher and their is mehedrin. A geirus from a truly kosher bais din is testifying to the kashrus of the mila, tevila and the acceptance of mitzvos. A truly mehadrin bais-din has spent time with the prospective geir. They (or their shaliach) actually learned halacha with them and constantly took note of what they learned and how it helped them develop, they had them in their house, the allowed them to come for Shabbos. When they believe that the geir is ready for Torah and Mitvos they take them to the mikveh. Immediately after (mila if appropriate and) tevilah the geir makes a bracha the bais din says omein. A MITZVAH HAS BEEN DONE After the geir comes out and gets dressed they wash negel vasser. A MITZVAH HAS BEEN DONE. There is some sort of a seudas mitvos. SEVERAL MITZVOS HAVE BEEN DONE. The Bais Din will send sombody to help make sure that their final kitchen preparations are done. MORE MITZVOS
My point is that if a geirus is done according to what I have seen, by the time that a person could get to a McDonalds after their geirus they would have done many mitzvos that established a pattern for their new life.

Sam K;

Is there a statute of limitations in the Rambam's ruling? If a geyr goes into recividism 20 years after conversion would they still annul it?

It is highly unlikely that a person who bothered to undergo a kosher geyrut would be going to McDonald's afterwards. Surely during the course of 12 to 24 months and in some cases even longer, there should be indications that this person might eventually burnout or something.

Is the standard for a woman easier to annul if necessary without mila?