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quote: Originally posted by MosheYisraeli:
Sam K;
Is there a statute of limitations in the Rambam's ruling? If a geyr goes into recividism 20 years after conversion would they still annul it?
It is highly unlikely that a person who bothered to undergo a kosher geyrut would be going to McDonald's afterwards. Surely during the course of 12 to 24 months and in some cases even longer, there should be indications that this person might eventually burnout or something.
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| Posts: 49 | Location: Queens, NY | Registered: August 25, 2005 |  |
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As far as I can tell (I'm not a posek or a Rav) a ger is a ger and remains Jewish even he renounces everything and joins the church or ashram 20 or more years later. His tevilla, mila, acceptance of mitzvot under the guidance of a kosher Bet din and with kosher eideim are kovea oovdot - establish facts. He remains a Jew who is sinning. His Jewish wife would still need a get.
As to his eating in McDonalds soon afterwards - there's a fellow right here at work with me who tells me he's been converted by an Orthodox Rabbi. His father is Jewish and his mother is not. He keeps almost nothing and informs me that he's an agnostic. He would eat in McDonalds or anywhere. Why did he convert? Obviously to marry a a Jewish woman. She went to yeshiva when she was younger but doesn't really keep Shabbos now. Still she didn't want to marry a non-Jew. I'd bet that stories like this are not that uncommon. Did the Rabbi do the right thing in converting him? Was she better off marrying him as a Gentile or a non practicing Jew who really didn't mean it when he converted? It's a tough call.
SamK
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| Posts: 49 | Location: Queens, NY | Registered: August 25, 2005 | |
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A jewish child that is adopted by jewish parents takes the parent's name. And essentially thier yichus. They are chiav for kadish and ahavas kibud av v'im, they are also called for aliyos and mishaberach by the adoptive parent's name. This child is in the same halachic category. They are chiav to the parents in every way, including yichus.
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| Posts: 226 | Location: New York | Registered: September 26, 2005 | |
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I said nothing about duchan or any other halachos of Cohanim. In fact they do not pass onto adopted children. Is it is your intention to disprove a statement by arguing that I am incorrect about issues that I have said nothing about?
In fact I learned the halochas of aveilos for conversion and geirus with Moshe Heineman, (Yeshiva Ner Yisroeel, and Rav K'hilas Agudas Yisroel of Baltimore) many years ago from Yoreh Deah. I have since heard concurence from rabonim and dayanim of Satmar, Ger and others when these issues came up. I am curious where you found a disagreement to what appeared to me to be the accepted minhag b'klal Yisroel.
MKF
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| Posts: 226 | Location: New York | Registered: September 26, 2005 | |
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if a Kohen adopts a son who is not known to be a Kohen, when the son is called for an aliyah, is the father's attribution of Kohen mentioned?
It must sound a little odd to call a Yisrael a Ben Kohein.
And if the father is somehow called for the Levi aliyah due to their being no Leviim, is there any prohibition on his adopted son being called for the first Yisrael aliyah?
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| Posts: 897 | Location: USA | Registered: May 30, 2004 | |
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GY Moderator
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quote: Originally posted by MK Fink:
I said nothing about duchan or any other halachos of Cohanim. In fact they do not pass onto adopted children. Is it is your intention to disprove a statement by arguing that I am incorrect about issues that I have said nothing about?
I'm sorry if I misunderstood you when you wrote: A jewish child that is adopted by jewish parents takes the parent's name. And essentially thier yichus.Yichus usually includes such things as Kehuna. As to Aveilus, let us be clear. I am saying that while the child may/should sit Shiva, and keep Shloshim and Yud Beis Chodesh, those matters in which he is otherwise obligated Min HaTorah, like learning Torah, are not overridden by the Aveilus, even during Shiva. Do you not agree with that? |
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| Posts: 797 | Location: London, England | Registered: June 10, 2005 | |
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Granted that the [probable] Kohein is not permitted to marry a converted woman, but is there any doubt that children from such a union are Jewish, just not kohanim, and the man loses his kohein status at least for some time?
On what basis does the Jewish school reject such Jewish children on whom we must all have great sympathy?
I say probable-kohein because I understand we don't really know who are really kohanim today, according to what a shul rabbi said in a speech.
As discussed in other threads, if there is a _doubt_ according to some respected authorities as to who really is a kohein in our times, and the impact of such an improper union does not even question the childrens' Jewishness, then we seem to have a pretty strange reported action.
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| Posts: 897 | Location: USA | Registered: May 30, 2004 | |
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quote: Originally posted by Rav Chaim:
I found that both the Achiezer 3:26:3 and Igross Moshe YD 1:159 both say that one’s Gierus could be in doubt, if the circumstances of his acceptance of Mitzvos are questioned, and we don’t say D’varim Sheblev, since there is an Anaqn Sahadi that there might be a problem here. They quote the Rambam and Shulchon Orech YD 268:12 that you have to worry (about the status of his geirus) until he proves his righteousness.
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| Posts: 49 | Location: Queens, NY | Registered: August 25, 2005 | |
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quote: Originally posted by Rav Chaim:
I found that both the Achiezer 3:26:3 and Igross Moshe YD 1:159 both say that one’s Gierus could be in doubt, if the circumstances of his acceptance of Mitzvos are questioned, and we don’t say D’varim Sheblev, since there is an Anaqn Sahadi that there might be a problem here. They quote the Rambam and Shulchon Orech YD 268:12 that you have to worry (about the status of his geirus) until he proves his righteousness.
OK So there is a doubt and you have to worry. What halachic significance does this doubt have? If this person is married to a Jewish woman and they wish to divorce that's a safek D'Oraysa. He would certainly have to give her a get. Could we tell him you are now patur from mitzvot and should be mechallel shabbat (a non Jew may not keep Shabbos)? I don't think so. If this person is a woman are her children not Jewish? That would surprise me. A safek d'Oraysa is l'chumra which would mean he or she still has the status of a Jew. Rav Shlomo Goren worked out a case of mamzeirus many years ago by pasuling the father's geirus. This caused a huge controversy and most poskim at the time disagreed with him. SamK SK |
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| Posts: 49 | Location: Queens, NY | Registered: August 25, 2005 | |
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Sam K
you quote yoreh deah as stating that you must worry about the validity of the conversion until he proves his riteousness. There are two things that are being presumed.
#1. when he states you is he referring to the bais din that does the conversion, a rav or dayan that is deciding to accept a person into a kehilla, or mosod; or is he empowering anybody that reads these words to question and decide if a person is jewish. You may be surprised how many people believe the last version with disasterous consequences for the accused and the accusers (as loshon harrah always does).
#2. Once the bais din completes the conversion and accepts the riteousness of the person who if any has the privelage to bring this into doubt and when. I repeat my assertion above as to what happens when everybody poskens independantly. Unfortunately people that would never eat a chicken with a shaila with out checking with a rov often have no problem poskening on somthing that has negative affects on entire families for generations.
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| Posts: 226 | Location: New York | Registered: September 26, 2005 | |
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quote: 1. That the conversion was carried out by a Beis Din which is suspected of converting people without the proper checks as to sincerity.
I would imagine that every Jew is required to show honor and respect to the authority of every proper Beis Din, and that every Jew must afford benefit of the doubt to every other Jew, even when each are members of respective Beis Dinim. In that context I am having trouble understanding the term "suspected". |
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| Posts: 897 | Location: USA | Registered: May 30, 2004 | |
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but suspected is exactly what happens
and there is frequently doubt with no benefit.
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| Posts: 226 | Location: New York | Registered: September 26, 2005 | |
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