quote:

Originally posted by rob:
In that context I am having trouble understanding the term "suspected".

I will give you an example. In the United States Rabbis are more autonimous than they are in (say) the United Kingdom or Israel. Any Rabbi can get together with 2 other Rabbis and form a Beis Din to convert. In certain cases (especially where the Rabbi concerned has gained a reputation for this) there is indeed a suspicion that the conversion is not proper.

If you want to think otherwise, then fine. But that won't change what happens out there.

"The London Beis Din are very strict about what conversions they will accept where there are circumstances that suggest the Kabolas Ol Mitzvos (acceptance of the yoke of Mitzvos) wasn't 100%."

Before I left the UK I was told by members of the Jewish community that the London Beit Din did not accept Israeli conversions, period, or at least, had not been known to even if it wasn't actually official policy. I was also told here in Israel, that I would not be accepted as Jewish if I returned to the UK.

I sometimes wonder if that means that I cannot handle non-mevushal wine in the UK, or if there is an issue of bishul akum when there.

Ayala

you are either jewish everywhere or nowhere. you need to find out why the UK BD does not recognize your geirus. If it is your intention to be a shomer torah u'mitzvos jew then you need to rectiy the situation with a rav that is acceptable for geirus. I hope that it is a misunderstanding that the UK BD is excommunicating an entire segment of the community without examining the specifics of each case. That would certainly be of grave concern.

Yisroel;
What you say has been the custom from the very beginning and it is true and correct. However, in recent years there has been a shift towards performing conversions under a regional va'ad of rabbonim. Even with three rabbonim, if a group in Yiddishkeit does not like one of the rabbinim for whatever reason, they can call to question that conversion. Or more significantly, if one of the rabbonim gets into trouble, after the fact, it may cast a shadow on a conversion. The problem is not the conversion itself but rather how others may percieve it. That's why nowadays conversion need to be as machmir as possible. That way it satisfies the most demanding people. Generally conversions performed under the va'ad tend to be recognized by everyone, especially if the convert takes on the yoke diligently.

Yisroel

it there is a valid bais din, an appropriately prepared applicant with appropriate intent which becomes kavonah followed by observance; is that not the minimum recuirement for geirus. Although other bd can say they don't recognize this, shouldn't they need to address the specific problems in a formal manner. If the BD does not do this isn't it possible that they have created loshon hara or chas v'shulom a shem ra for a yid. These situations are very serious. and, if any bd is making such sweeping judgements without due consideration of the facts shouldn't the kehilla concern themselves with the application of psak halacha from this bd.

moshe y

i don't understand al pi halacha why an after the fact misdead of a member of a geirus bd would have any impact on the geir. if anything it sounds like loshan hara about the geir. which we all hope anybody in an authority position would refrain from. and other people should refrain from paskening shailas on their own.

I also hope it is a misunderstanding. The sad fact of the matter is that when you convert, there will always be someone, somewhere, that does not accept your status.

I may look into reconverting at some stage with a Haredi Beit Din to ensure there is never any question over my (b'esrat Hashem) future children.

As far as the UK goes I have no intention of ever returning to live there so it doesn't bother me. I am just curious as to whether that means I am not Jewish when I am visiting in the UK ;-)

MK Fink;
Perhaps I should tell the whole story without naming names. A rav got into trouble with women he was converting. It became a very public scandal and the rav moved out of town. While no one formally challenged the geyrut performed by him previously, a question came into people's minds as to which converts performed this extra step in their geyrut, casting a cloud on their conversions. Unfortunately it is lashon hara, but this is an extreme case of how a misdeed by a rav, after the fact...or seemingly so...could have impact on the geyr status of person.

Ayala,
When you go to the UK you may handle wine. The burden of proof is on anyone who challenges you, not the other way round. The rabbanut of Israel is accepted worldwide. If the beit din in the UK won't recognize you, they have to take it up with the rabbanut in Eretz Yisrael not you, otherwise it's lashon hara, the gravest a beit din of that kind can commit.

quote:

Originally posted by Ayala:
Before I left the UK I was told by members of the Jewish community that the London Beit Din did not accept Israeli conversions, period, or at least, had not been known to even if it wasn't actually official policy. I was also told here in Israel, that I would not be accepted as Jewish if I returned to the UK.

That's clearly nonsense. Of course the LBD accept conversions in Israel provided they have been carried out under the auspices of the recognised Beis Din and that the person converting didn't go to Israel just to convert (because they are perhaps quicker in Israel) and then intends to return to his or her home country.


Who in fact converted you?

quote:

Originally posted by MK Fink:
Yisroel

it there is a valid bais din, an appropriately prepared applicant with appropriate intent which becomes kavonah followed by observance; is that not the minimum recuirement for geirus. Although other bd can say they don't recognize this, shouldn't they need to address the specific problems in a formal manner. If the BD does not do this isn't it possible that they have created loshon hara or chas v'shulom a shem ra for a yid. These situations are very serious. and, if any bd is making such sweeping judgements without due consideration of the facts shouldn't the kehilla concern themselves with the application of psak halacha from this bd.

I can assure you that the London Beis Din takes these matters very seriously and do not make "sweeping judgements".

Surely, though, it is up to the "dodgy" conversion authorities to "clean up their act".

Moshe: thankyou.
Yisroel: The Jerusalem rabbinate. And I came to Israel to stay for good, not to return afterwards. I moved lock, stock and barrel. I cannot foresee any situation in which I would ever wish to return to the UK.
But it does bug me that if perhaps I met a shidduch from the UK, or my future children wanted to live there for some reason, that my Jewishness would likely be called into question.

I can't see any Beis Din not accepting a conversion of the Rabbanut of Yerushalayim in those circumstances, except in the cases we have been describing where the convert immediately does certain acts that cast doubt on his or her sincerity, but that has more to do with the convert than the Beis Din.

quote:

Originally posted by Ayala:
I may look into reconverting at some stage with a Haredi Beit Din to ensure there is never any question over my (b'esrat Hashem) future children.

I'm not sure what you mean by a Haredi Beit Din.

You have said that you were converted by the Rabbanut of Yerushalayim and, assuming you mean the actual Rabbanut, their Dayanim are every bit Haredi as the Beit Din of (say) the Eidah Charedit (whom you possibly meant by a Haredi Beit Din).

You don't want to start messing around with your children's status. If they were born after you converted, then they are Jewish. If they were subsequently to acquire the status of converts then that could affect whom they could marry (a converted girl may not marry a Kohen, for example).

quote:

Originally posted by Yisroel Phillips:
Actually what it says in Yoreh Deah 268:12 is that if the Beis Din is convinced that the conversion is sincere and not for some ulterior motive (for example, marriage to a Jewish woman) then he is accepted for conversion.

It goes on to say that if someone converted without any checks being made as to his/her sincerity or that he/she wasn't taught the rewards and punishments for Mitzvos, then we should be wary about the conversion until the convert has shown his/her righteousness.

I believe that it is right for any responsible Beis Din to question the conversion of anyone in either of the following situations:

1. That the conversion was carried out by a Beis Din which is suspected of converting people without the proper checks as to sincerity.

2. Where the conduct of the convert immediately after the conversion (not several years later) casts doubt on his/her sincerity.

What strikes me is the gemara in Shabbos that discusses a person who converted bain ha'akum. How many korbonos (chataos) does he have to bring for never having kept Shabbos and for having been mechallel Shabbos many times? One. What?!!! He was converted in Outer Mongolia and the Bet Din, Rav and eidim who converted him and then moved on didn't even teach him about Shabbos?! That's a proper geirus?! Didn't we learn that we teach the ger miksat kalot and chamurot, some of the easier and more stringent halachot? This Beis din didn't even teach him the basics, e.g. Shabbos, a yesod of Judaism. Hafley v'fele, this is a great wonderment. And yet it is a good geirus. No one in that gemara even questions it. They only discuss how many sacrifices he must bring. I know we don't actually posken halacha from the Gemara, (the Chasam Sofer & Rav Moshe Feinstein can do that), yet one gets the strong feeling that a geirus by a kosher beis din and eidim that included kabbolos mitzvot, mila and tevilla creates a Jewish person.

Sam K
I don’t know the exact implications Halacha L’Maaseh, but even on your assumption that it’s a Sufaik Doraisah, the Chumrah is not always on the side of her being a Jew. Is her husband allowed to live with her? Safaik Daraisah should tell us it’s Ussur. Can someone marry her child? Safaik Daraisah should tell us it’s Ussur. Are you allowed to eat from his Shechita, be Yoitzeh with his Kiddush or cook food for him on Yom Tov? Safaik Daraisah should tell us it’s Ussur.

Furthermore, since he can have a Chezkas Goy, and there is a great “Reiusah” on the Geirus, then maybe we can rely on that she’s a Goy. (It’s possible, but I can’t vouch for it.)

(May I ask what is a "Reiusah" please?)

If there is _sufficient_ doubt on his or her geirus, would a community without a Shabbos Goy be permitted to ask him or her to do something on Shabbos that they cannot do, such as turning on a light switch that the Jews in the community need to be on?

Chaim

i think that might be a little bit too yeshivish-speak for this forum.

Rav Chaim;
I think you need to clarify whether the geyr is behaving as a Jew or whether the community is treating him as a Jew. Whether anyone would consume his schechting depends on whether he is even perfoming the shechita correctly. Whether a Jew would feed him on Yom Tov has to do with whether others regard him to be a Jew or not.

Rob;
Even if he were a Goy, a Jew couldn't ask him to do anything he couldn't do on Shabbat.

quote:

Even if he were a Goy, a Jew couldn't ask him to do anything he couldn't do on Shabbat.

If he were a goy, then there is nothing he couldn't do on Shabbos other than perhaps fully observer Shabbos.

My understanding is that for the benefit of the community, a Jew in the community can ask a goy to do certain things that Jews cannot do on Shabbos; but of course if the community considers this person to possibly be a Jew, then I assume they would not ask him to do something which they could not ask any other Jew to do.