in a community that is not consumed by loshon harra there would be very few people informed of this problem, only those that need to know. and, the rabonim or bais-din would resolve the decrepancy immediately. as for asking him to do melacha on shabbos. i don't believe that embarassing sombody in this situation is correct. rabonim that i have discussed this with indicated that you should not use sombody preparing for geirus as a shabbos goy. the long term relationship with the community that they are seeking acceptance is an issue.

Rob:

A “Reiusah” is something that’s wrong with it. From the term “Rah”, bad. So over here, there is something wrong with the conversion that makes us wonder if the conversion takes place, so then we’ll leave him on the original Chazaka of him being a Goy.

As I said, this is just a theory, and since the Gedarim (perimeters) are not clear, so I don’t know how we act L’Halacha. It could be that the fact that there was a questionable Geirus could make a Reiusah on the Chazaka, that we can’t rely on it, so we would be left with a 50/50 Safeik (Safeik Hashakel.)

TO Sam K:

Your right from the Gemarah that only saying some of the laws and then learn the rest afterwards. We’re talking about BD that don’t inform any of the laws, because their main objective is not to make the candidate to be a Shoimer Torah U’Mitzvos.

Also, over there, the person was sincere and kept what he did know and was impossible to find out about Shabbos. The proof is, that he was sincere, that when he found out about it, he’s willing to bring a Chatos on it.

To MK Fink,

I wouldn’t call it too “Yeshivish” , but rather a little technical speaking. I’m sure that there are plenty of non-Yeshivashe people who frequent these forums would understand my post. I’m sure there are people who read the forums that wouldn’t understand a lot of posts here, including yours, since they use terminology that are not familiar to them. So to what point should one explain his terms. Is “Chazaka” also not fit for writing? There are people that write in the forum that I don’t understand what they’re saying, since they use terms that I’m not familiar with. So if someone uses a word that he doesn’t know, the proper response is like Rob, that asks what it means, thus not only does he now know what it means but also now has gained by building up his vocabulary.

To Moshe Yisraeli:
A Goy that shechts, even under supervision that he shechts correctly, the shechita is still not kosher since he isn’t a Bar Zevicha (one who is obligated in Shechita).

A Jew cannot cook for a Goy on Yom Tov since it says “Lochem v’lo l’akum” . It is for your needs, not the needs of a Goy. You may not invite him over on Yom Tov, since you might come to cook for him.

There are things that a Goy is allowed to do for a Jew on Shabbos : i.e. for the needs of one who is sick, even if not life-threatening, or a derabonon for a Mitzva or a great financial loss.
Rob:

A “Reiusah” is something that’s wrong with it. From the term “Rah”, bad. So over here, there is something wrong with the conversion that makes us wonder if the conversion takes place, so then we’ll leave him on the original Chazaka of him being a Goy.

As I said, this is just a theory, and since the Gedarim (perimeters) are not clear, so I don’t know how we act L’Halacha. It could be that the fact that there was a questionable Geirus could make a Reiusah on the Chazaka, that we can’t rely on it, so we would be left with a 50/50 Safeik (Safeik Hashakel.)

TO Sam K:

Your right from the Gemarah that only saying some of the laws and then learn the rest afterwards. We’re talking about BD that don’t inform any of the laws, because their main objective is not to make the candidate to be a Shoimer Torah U’Mitzvos.

Also, over there, the person was sincere and kept what he did know and was impossible to find out about Shabbos. The proof is, that he was sincere, that when he found out about it, he’s willing to bring a Chatos on it.

To MK Fink,

I wouldn’t call it too “Yeshivish” , but rather a little technical speaking. I’m sure that there are plenty of non-Yeshivashe people who frequent these forums would understand my post. I’m sure there are people who read the forums that wouldn’t understand a lot of posts here, including yours, since they use terminology that are not familiar to them. So to what point should one explain his terms. Is “Chazaka” also not fit for writing? There are people that write in the forum that I don’t understand what they’re saying, since they use terms that I’m not familiar with. So if someone uses a word that he doesn’t know, the proper response is like Rob, that asks what it means, thus not only does he now know what it means but also now has gained by building up his vocabulary.

To Moshe Yisraeli:
A Goy that shechts, even under supervision that he shechts correctly, the shechita is still not kosher since he isn’t a Bar Zevicha (one who is obligated in Shechita).

A Jew cannot cook for a Goy on Yom Tov since it says “Lochem v’lo l’akum” . It is for your needs, not the needs of a Goy. You may not invite him over on Yom Tov, since you might come to cook for him.

There are things that a Goy is allowed to do for a Jew on Shabbos : i.e. for the needs of one who is sick, even if not life-threatening, or a derabonon for a Mitzva or a great financial loss.

quote:

should not use sombody preparing for geirus as a shabbos goy

In the particular case we were discussing, it seems that the person in question thought they were finished with their geirus, but chose a Beis Din of which another community was suspicious of, and would not rely upon for such a matter.

I am questioning if the community's representatives who have concerns as to the propriety of the conversion would consider it doubt, or complete unacceptance... whether they would be permitted to ask the person to do something which could only be asked of a goy would thus be a measure of that concern.

Rob:

A “Reiusah” is something that’s wrong with it. From the term “Rah”, bad. So over here, there is something wrong with the conversion that makes us wonder if the conversion takes place, so then we’ll leave him on the original Chazaka of him being a Goy.

As I said, this is just a theory, and since the Gedarim (perimeters) are not clear, so I don’t know how we act L’Halacha. It could be that the fact that there was a questionable Geirus could make a Reiusah on the Chazaka, that we can’t rely on it, so we would be left with a 50/50 Safeik (Safeik Hashakel.)

TO Sam K:

Your right from the Gemarah that only saying some of the laws and then learn the rest afterwards. We’re talking about BD that don’t inform any of the laws, because their main objective is not to make the candidate to be a Shoimer Torah U’Mitzvos.

Also, over there, the person was sincere and kept what he did know and was impossible to find out about Shabbos. The proof is, that he was sincere, that when he found out about it, he’s willing to bring a Chatos on it.

To MK Fink,

I wouldn’t call it too “Yeshivish” , but rather a little technical speaking. I’m sure that there are plenty of non-Yeshivashe people who frequent these forums would understand my post. I’m sure there are people who read the forums that wouldn’t understand a lot of posts here, including yours, since they use terminology that are not familiar to them. So to what point should one explain his terms. Is “Chazaka” also not fit for writing? There are people that write in the forum that I don’t understand what they’re saying, since they use terms that I’m not familiar with. So if someone uses a word that he doesn’t know, the proper response is like Rob, that asks what it means, thus not only does he now know what it means but also now has gained by building up his vocabulary.

To Moshe Yisraeli:
A Goy that shechts, even under supervision that he shechts correctly, the shechita is still not kosher since he isn’t a Bar Zevicha (one who is obligated in Shechita).

A Jew cannot cook for a Goy on Yom Tov since it says “Lochem v’lo l’akum” . It is for your needs, not the needs of a Goy. You may not invite him over on Yom Tov, since you might come to cook for him.

There are things that a Goy is allowed to do for a Jew on Shabbos : i.e. for the needs of one who is sick, even if not life-threatening, or a derabonon for a Mitzva or a great financial loss.

quote:

Originally posted by Rav Chaim:

To MK Fink,

I wouldn’t call it too “Yeshivish” , but rather a little technical speaking. I’m sure that there are plenty of non-Yeshivashe people who frequent these forums would understand my post. I’m sure there are people who read the forums that wouldn’t understand a lot of posts here, including yours, since they use terminology that are not familiar to them. So to what point should one explain his terms. Is “Chazaka” also not fit for writing? There are people that write in the forum that I don’t understand what they’re saying, since they use terms that I’m not familiar with. So if someone uses a word that he doesn’t know, the proper response is like Rob, that asks what it means, thus not only does he now know what it means but also now has gained by building up his vocabulary.
.

chaim
i meant no offense by the term yeshivish. what i meant was the technical terminology that is common in yeshivish learning. i certainly agree with you that these terms are commonly used in all torah learning. some of us are just a little more likely to not string them together without reference to the matter at hand so we don't forget what we are talking about. maybe it's an effect of age, or possibly the audience that each of us is accustomed to speaking about. i don't believe that i said that chazakah or anything else was unfit for writing. what i meant to say was that we can all benefit from your yeshivish background and it's, comparitavely, technical aproach to learning. i just thought a longer, more referenced back to the original topic, comment would have allowed more participants to benefit from your knowledge.

quote:

Originally posted by rob:

quote:

should not use sombody preparing for geirus as a shabbos goy

In the particular case we were discussing, it seems that the person in question thought they were finished with their geirus, but chose a Beis Din of which another community was suspicious of, and would not rely upon for such a matter.

I am questioning if the community's representatives who have concerns as to the propriety of the conversion would consider it doubt, or complete unacceptance... whether they would be permitted to ask the person to do something which could only be asked of a goy would thus be a measure of that concern.

using textual analysis and deduction you could find for against asking this person to do melacha. it would be a shaila for a daas torah to answer. meaning it would require in integrative approach. if the person is living shomer torah i'mitzvos or if the person was or will be a member of the kehilla, more so if an active memeber;then it most certainly would not be allowed because it would appear that a jew is asking a jew to perform a melacha.

quote:

Originally posted by Rav Chaim:
To MK Fink,

I wouldn’t call it too “Yeshivish” , but rather a little technical speaking. I’m sure that there are plenty of non-Yeshivashe people who frequent these forums would understand my post. I’m sure there are people who read the forums that wouldn’t understand a lot of posts here, including yours, since they use terminology that are not familiar to them. So to what point should one explain his terms. Is “Chazaka” also not fit for writing? There are people that write in the forum that I don’t understand what they’re saying, since they use terms that I’m not familiar with. So if someone uses a word that he doesn’t know, the proper response is like Rob, that asks what it means, thus not only does he now know what it means but also now has gained by building up his vocabulary.

How about if we were to all use the Glossary for Hebrew Words thread, to ask what certain words used throughout the discussions as to what they mean. And one could include a link with the topic discussion at hand and other relative information if needed.

To view the current list that is in the Glossary link here: http://www.globalyeshiva.com/glossary.htm

if the comment were made with a reply with quote it may of been more easily understood.
i am actually still not sure what the point was. but that is most likely a shortcoming on my part.

quote:

A Goy that shechts, even under supervision that he shechts correctly, the shechita is still not kosher since he isn’t a Bar Zevicha (one who is obligated in Shechita).

A Jew cannot cook for a Goy on Yom Tov since it says “Lochem v’lo l’akum” . It is for your needs, not the needs of a Goy. You may not invite him over on Yom Tov, since you might come to cook for him.

There are things that a Goy is allowed to do for a Jew on Shabbos : i.e. for the needs of one who is sick, even if not life-threatening, or a derabonon for a Mitzva or a great financial loss.

Rav Chiam;
We have a little confusion here. My response was to your piece about a "presumed" Jew whose status was being called to question. So shechting was by a presumed Jew, not a Goy. The two are different concepts. My question was if a presumed Jew shechted a behema properly according to halacha, then what's the verdict, given that his geyrut is being called into question. I wasn't talking about a Goy shechting.

About cooking for Goy; we all understand that, but again this is not a Goy, it's a "presumed" Jew whose geyrut is being called to question.

Issues concerning melacha by a Goy on Shabbat didn't really cover what we were discussing. We were not discussing pechuak nefesh or great loss situations.

The paradigm is that of a "presumed" Jew whose geyrut is being called into question.

Sam;
MK Fink;
You both bring out an issue that's overdue. The issue you raise goes beyond just understanding language but also level of Torah learning and background. On this blog there are people of different levels of learning and people from different backgrounds using colloquialisms familiar to their communities etc. For this reason I try to avoid sources unless I know I'm dealing with a person who can go back to sources too. I avoid colloquialisms because mine are Sephardic and most I see here are Yiddish etc. It is really not fair to expect everyone to appreciate my colloqualisms and even expect them to learn them. Your suggestion that we all use Hebrew is a very good one. Also the idea of using the glossary is a good one. I think as the site grows and becomes more active there would be different environments for different levels of learning. It would be nice if we had a Talmud Bavli online to which we would easily reference, click and paste. When it comes to use of sources, they are never complete because any issue we discuss is usually covered by a myriad of sources that bringing just one source creates more questions and debate than it actually resolves.

quote:

Originally posted by Rav Chaim:
Sam K
I don’t know the exact implications Halacha L’Maaseh, but even on your assumption that it’s a Sufaik Doraisah, the Chumrah is not always on the side of her being a Jew. Is her husband allowed to live with her? Safaik Daraisah should tell us it’s Ussur. Can someone marry her child? Safaik Daraisah should tell us it’s Ussur. Are you allowed to eat from his Shechita, be Yoitzeh with his Kiddush or cook food for him on Yom Tov? Safaik Daraisah should tell us it’s Ussur.

Furthermore, since he can have a Chezkas Goy, and there is a great “Reiusah” on the Geirus, then maybe we can rely on that she’s a Goy. (It’s possible, but I can’t vouch for it.)

i still don't understand which posting this was referring too.

Quote “quote:
Originally posted by Rav Chaim:
Sam K
I don’t know the exact implications Halacha L’Maaseh, but even on your assumption that it’s a Sufaik Doraisah, the Chumrah is not always on the side of her being a Jew. Is her husband allowed to live with her? Safaik Daraisah should tell us it’s Ussur. Can someone marry her child? Safaik Daraisah should tell us it’s Ussur. Are you allowed to eat from his Shechita, be Yoitzeh with his Kiddush or cook food for him on Yom Tov? Safaik Daraisah should tell us it’s Ussur.

Furthermore, since he can have a Chezkas Goy, and there is a great “Reiusah” on the Geirus, then maybe we can rely on that she’s a Goy. (It’s possible, but I can’t vouch for it.)


i still don't understand which posting this was referring too.”

It’s from this one

Quote “quote:
Originally posted by Rav Chaim:
I found that both the Achiezer 3:26:3 and Igross Moshe YD 1:159 both say that one’s Gierus could be in doubt, if the circumstances of his acceptance of Mitzvos are questioned, and we don’t say D’varim Sheblev, since there is an Anaqn Sahadi that there might be a problem here. They quote the Rambam and Shulchon Orech YD 268:12 that you have to worry (about the status of his geirus) until he proves his righteousness.


OK So there is a doubt and you have to worry. What halachic significance does this doubt have? If this person is married to a Jewish woman and they wish to divorce that's a safek D'Oraysa. He would certainly have to give her a get. Could we tell him you are now patur from mitzvot and should be mechallel shabbat (a non Jew may not keep Shabbos)? I don't think so.
If this person is a woman are her children not Jewish? That would surprise me. A safek d'Oraysa is l'chumra which would mean he or she still has the status of a Jew.

Rav Shlomo Goren worked out a case of mamzeirus many years ago by pasuling the father's geirus. This caused a huge controversy and most poskim at the time disagreed with him.

SamK
SK

TO Moshe Y
We don't persume anything. Right away the Rambam and Shulchon Orech says that we are Choshesh (worry about his status) him until he proves his rightousness. This would imply that we don't persume anything until he proves himself.

quote:

Originally posted by Rav Chaim:
TO Moshe Y
We don't persume anything. Right away the Rambam and Shulchon Orech says that we are Choshesh (worry about his status) him until he proves his rightousness. This would imply that we don't persume anything until he proves himself.

the geir needs to prove themselves when?
when they divorce, (chas v'shulom)
when they first convert
at what point have they proven their riteousness and a claim of choshesh is in fact lashon harah

Rav Chaim;

Of course, if a geyr has undergone a kosher conversion and is living shomer mitzvot we "presume" the conversion was okay. The issue we were discussion was when, sometime in the near future, questions began to arise after he had originally been considered a kosher conversion. So until any question is raised he is "presumed" to be a Jew. Only when questions are raised is a safek invoked. I guess the big question is when that occurs. But a Geyr does not have a "probationary" period. He proves himself while going through geyrut. This is the reason why he must move to a Jewish community and can be observed to be living a righteous life. That happens before the mikveh. He is presumed to be a kosher Jew coming out of the mikveh until he proves himself otherwise. Anything to the contrary is the burden on the Beit Din, not on the Geyr. If the Beit Din has done its job there should be a presumption of a kosher Jew coming out of the mikveh.

Let's accept your argument for a moment; do you really mean that a Geyr is a still a Goy until he proves himself? That's the context we were discussing when shechting and feeding on Yom Tov were raised. If we presume a Geyr to be still a Goy until he proves himself, then the mikveh and brit milah are a farse. They mean absolutely nothing.

moshe y

although people may deny it; you would not believe how many people in jewish communities agree with the hypothetical situation that you are posing to chaim.
as i said in an earlier post; people that would bring the smallest shailo to a rov before eatining a chicken (as they should) have no problem poskening on the status of geirus. i have personally been told by frum people that it does not matter to them; halacha, rabonim, or bais-din when it comes to a gair. they have stated clearly once a goy always a goy. children who only know torah and mitzvos from birth, are able to learn chumash and gemorah in hebrew, and speak fluent yiddish are kept out of school because their parents are geirim.

Let�s go through what we�re talking about in the first place. If you go back to the original discussion, we are talking about....

1) Someone that was known to be converting for alternative reasons (marrying etc.), so after his Geirus he needs to prove that he was sincere. This is what the Shulchon Orech says on that we need to worry about until he proves otherwise

If Right after the conversion, he never partook of doing Mitzvos, but went on his merry way to acting like a Goy (but now with the �permission� to marry a Jew) then there are reasons to say there was an invalid Geirus

But if

1) He started off his Geirus without any alternative motives

Or...

2) He started off his Geirus as doing Mitzvos as regular and was part of the community
then...

nobody disagrees that the Geirus happened. If at that point he stops doing Mitzvos, then he�s a Yisrael Mumar and not a Goy. (Even if BD proves him not to be a good candidate, it�s over. Once the Geirus is already Chal (taken place) it�s taken place and you cannot take it back retroactively)

And definitely not if........

he keeps doing Mitzvos and is part of the Jewish community is his Geirus not good. Nobody disagrees with this that they are Geirim. (So nobody is attacking the regular religous Ger)

maybe you are not attacking the regular religious ger.
to say that nobody is ignores perkei avos admonision to not judge a person until you have stood in their place. a few good hearted people (ffb) have stood in this place and were shocked to find out the reality of how gerim are treated by the observant community in the us.
you would have a hard time convincing my older children otherwise. if anbody can explain to me why they can't go jewish school with their friends, but totti and mommy won't send them to public school, because we are frum.
my favorite answer is still the menahel of a haimish cheder that explained to me that he wanted to take my boys, but when they took geirim in the past the children beat them. when i asked him why he did not call the parents, he told me that he had. the parents did not understand why this was a problem. i wish this were an exageration. other people thought it was until they tried to help.

Rav Chaim;
The qualification you make is very hypothetical because no kosher beit din would convert someone for alterior motives, if they knew them ahead of time. Some will convert the goy after the fact, i.e. if the Jew goes ahead and marries a goy and now that they are a family, some will convert him/her but this is done after the alterior motive has been assuaged. So the concept of a geyr who still needs to prove himself after mikveh does not exist in halacha.

MK Fink;
Yes, about Geyrim in Yiddishkeit it's not an accident that the Kadosh Baruch Hu had to command it three times that we should treat Geyrim with kindness....reminding us that we were under Paro's yoke. He knew that as a community we weren't really up to the task.

a reminder of an earlier post of mine.
in the mikveh a bracha is made, the actual act of geirus is performing a mitzvah in and of itself by making your first bracha. shecheini is said afterwords. nach a bracha, nach a mitvah.
after the mikveh they made sure i put on tefillin. they made a seudah and made sure the family made brachos rishon and achron. mincha and maariv followed. invitations for shabbos and yom tov follwed. the bais din made sure that we were keeping mitvos.