I just read an article in the Jewish Press that discusses the communal perception of ba’alei teshuvah. I thought it was interesting, but I am not sure I agree with its assessment of the situation:

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While ba`alei teshuva are lauded for their return to an observant lifestyle, and even admired for the challenges they must overcome, they never manage to shake the stigma of not being Frum From Birth. This stigma is even transferred to children and the extended family, as if it is a genetic defect of spiritual proportions. Not surprisingly, ba`alei teshuva have a significantly lower value on the shidduch market, and in general have a much lower ceiling in the observant Jewish community. The definition of ba`al teshuva as one who was previously less observant and the resulting lower status of those saddled with the term is one of only a few things the myriad splinters of observant Jewry (particularly FFB`s) agree upon.

Granted there are different communities that may relate to ba’alei teshuva differently, but in my community they are viewed with respect and a source of inspiration.

The article continues to contrast the technical view, by Chazal, of what a ba’al teshuva is and the modern colloquial term used today. But what interests me is how do you feel ba’alei teshuva are viewed in your community (or your perception of the Orthodox Jewish world in general). I wonder if the perception of ba’alei teshuva would differ greatly from those who do not consider themselves ba’alei teshuva (in the modern sense of the word. Of course, anyone who strives to grow in their Judaism is also a ba’al teshuva!)

I grew up in a community with a large number of ba'alei teshuva. I think the stigma of whether or not your good enough if your a bal teshuva is more common in the charedi communities. My comunnity was more of a modern orthodox, and I never once felt a stigma by being the daughter of two ba'alei teshuva. In my class at high school we once took a count, and there was only one girl who's parents were not both ba'alei teshuva.
In fact there is a Midresh that says that Rachel and Yitzchak were davening for children, hashem listened to what Rachel said because of the passuk that says something along the lines of "Bemakom sheBa'al Teshuva Omed (in a place where a bal teshuva stands) Ein Tzadik Gamoor Yachol lageya (a complete Tzaddik can not reach that level)"

First of all, Leppi, RAshi says over there that Yitzchock was answered, as it says that HAshem listened to him, not her, because it's not compareable the Tfilah of a Tzadek Ben Tzadik to a Tzadek ben Rasha

Secondly, I think it's unfair to accuse Chareidi Jews as being haughty over BTs is wrong. In my Chareidi community, BTs are treated well and with respect. The whole article comes from the prospective of the Jewish Press from their circles, and everyone knows they are modern orthodox. (Aint no Chareidim there.)

The whole article I think is wrong. They're trying to make it sound like hypricritical that they're treated with such stigmas. In the Shidduch scene, if all else is equal, why shouldn't someone with the choice to pick the one that has a frum family that their grandkids have Frum grandparents and cousins. There is also a risk that the BT might return to his former lifestyle, even though its not that frequent, but I know a few cases, and the situation with the spouse and children are a real mess. There are many unfourtuonate problems in Shidduchim where it's no fault of the person, yet for good reasons people stay away from there. People who's sibling went off the Derech or that there is sickness in the family (physical or mental.) I, myself, had a hard time with my Shidduch because of my height (i'm only 5 feet) so we got a lot of "nos" because they were looking for someone taller. (my wife said that everyone has a Chesoron, so she took the one with height than with something else (little did she know at the time other Chesronos that I had )

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Rav Chaim,

Rav Chaim, allow me to disagree.

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The previous source (Shulchan Aruch) clearly indicates that one who has rehabilitated himself from sin reclaims his status in the community. Not only that, but it is absolutely forbidden to remind a ba`al teshuva of his past deeds or a convert of the deeds of his forefathers, as the Torah states (Shemos 22) “Do not torment or oppress a convert” (Mishna Bava Metzia 4:10). We are adjured in numerous places throughout the Torah to treat converts with equity and sensitivity. It goes without saying that ba̓alei teshuva, who are born as “one of us,” should receive this same treatment.

BT are people who made a conscious choice to return to Judaism. Did FFB really have a choice?

You say, "There is also a risk that the BT might return to his former lifestyle, even though its not that frequent, but I know a few cases, and the situation with the spouse and children are a real mess." Of course there is. And there is a risk that a BT will tell the FFBs about Las Vegas, and a FFB will want to go there. But isn't it Loshon Hara to generalize the suspicion on all baalei teshuvah?


Regarding the situation with spouse and children - could you please explain why it is a mess? I really did not understand...

I am focusing less on the analysis of the Jewish Press and more on how we as a community have made ba'alei teshuva feel. I am sure that each community within the frum world has its challenges, but we all have to analyze how we relate to other people of different backgrounds. Rav Chaim made a very good point about shiduchim - we all want the best possible situation for us, kids & grandkids. But, obviously this needs to be evaluated on an individual level rather than blanket judgments based on an individual's parents. I know many ba'alei teshuva that are significantly more 'shtark' than people who were born to frum parents. And on the flip side I am aware of many that aren't so stable (and I think that is more of a personality issue - which should be fairly easy to assess once you meet the person).

First to Alex:
I never said anyone to degrade a Ball Tshuvah. (Besides the BT that they are referring to are talking of those that were frum and went off. Those were guilty people who changed. We're talking of people who didn't know any better and asthey know, they changed. This is of corse nothing to be ashamed about.) but on the other hand, when someone realizes that people are turning them down for a Shidduch, it's nothing personal, it's just that they have people with better situations to deal with. I'm not saying that it's their fault or anything. It's just the situation which is unfotuanitly opon them.

About suspician about Bts, that's why I carefully worded the answer to say that there is small % that do that. It does make sence, since they were already accustomed to that lifestyle, that they have a bigger chance of returning. Not saying that BTs are bad in any way in general, but this risk is still real, and with everything else =, which people have a long list of quality people ofthose that don't have the same risk, why should they pick the person that has the inherit risk than the same person without it.

The cases I know, is after marrying a BT and having a kid, the BT went back to his old lifestyle, leaving mother and child behind. (BH he gave her a Get, so she was able to remarry.) Other cases there was a great custody battle for the kids.

To Gilad: Of course there are many Shtark Bts (and I have a good many of freinds who are so) and there are FFBs that aren't, but those FFBS are not in the forefront for Shiduchim either. The Shtarker FFBs from good families, which are very plentiful, happen to be the most appealing for people, so they'll be the first ones to be said yes to. This is just a fact of life, just like the taller and the better looking and those with the better personality and sence of humor etc. are also the 1st ones to be said yes to. Life in general is unfair (I did not choose my size) and it's a challenge to go through it, but we must.

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Rav Chaim made a very good point about shiduchim - we all want the best possible situation for us, kids & grandkids.

Yes, of course, and that is natural. But do we know what's best for our kids? Who would make the best husband to our daughter? The best wife to our son? How can we choose for them between a pious BT and a skeptical FFB? Between a scholar and a diamond seller? Between a descendant of R" Soloveitchik and a decendant of Martin Buber? And, if we only look at the pedigree of the chathan, then how are we different from the society in India?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Alex,

Rav Chaim, I will be the last person ever to accuse you of Loshon Hara. I know you for a scholar, a decent human being, and a person who has enough patience to talk to me here, with all my provocative thoughts that are teeming in my head.

I was referring to the general stigma around BTs. The example you gave about the BT going back - I can give you an example of a Chareidi who went shooting in the Machpelah cave, Baruch Goldstein. Can we make a judgment of all Chareidim based on this one mentally unstable man? Of course not. Ditto BTs. Some go back away from the Kollel - but who knows? Maybe because they feel the stigma? The only way to keep BTs is to make them feel equal on all accounts. I would give my daughter to a scholar with no pedigree over an ignoramus whose great-great-grandfather was even the greatest scholar in the world.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Alex,

You are correct that we may never know anything with certainty. However whenever we analyze the risk associated with any endeavor we have to make certain assumptions. These assumptions may be based on corroborated empirical evidence, logic or other means. Sometimes we miscalculate, but we need to make an attempt to minimize the risk as much as possible.
I once heard someone describe it with the following metaphor, there is always a risk when you cross the street that a car will hit you. We try to minimize the danger by crossing at traffic light. Even in that situation you may still get hit – but that doesn’t mean you should close your eyes and randomly run across the street. That would increase the likelihood of a catastrophic outcome.
My point is that we should take more time to evaluate an individual before we reject them out of hand. In many cases common background is crucial for a successful relationship, which is why Rav Chaim, would opt for the ‘shtark’ FFB for his child before considering the ‘shtark’ BT. However in some situations the serious BT, at least in my opinion, is preferable to the serious FFB. In a nutshell, every situation needs to be carefully evaluated & simple titles (BT, FFB, Modern, Yeshivish or whatever) are not helpful by themselves.

Gilad,

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In a nutshell, every situation needs to be carefully evaluated & simple titles (BT, FFB, Modern, Yeshivish or whatever) are not helpful by themselves.

I think you are too soft on these titles / bins / castes. Not only are they not helpful, they are deceiving, as any simplifications. They say nothing about the person.

Of course we want our children to marry into the same group. It is condescention to other groups that is not an acceptable attitude.

Being labeled as an alien must be traumatic. It is also far from an uncommon experience. I also don't know if the Divrei Chazal mentioned are the real root of this issue.

Many people who are born into a culture and are very comfortable with their surroundings will be wary before looking at a foreigner favorably. While stereotyping is not only a method that denies intelligent rational behavior it is also hurtful. However, it is normal behavior , unfortunately.
Many FFBs are born into a comfortable culture and society and are quite familiar with stereotyping as a result.

Shragie,

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However, it is normal behavior , unfortunately.

Which does not mean that it is the way it should be. I mean, if we the Jews are so suspicious of the other Jews, can we really blame the antisemites for being suspicious of us? The normalcy of this behavior does not mean it is Torah-prescribed, or moral, or even ethical.

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Being labeled as an alien must be traumatic.

Have you never been labeled as an alien? Of course it is traumatic. I was labeled as such (Jew) in my days in Russia, I was labeled as such (Russian) in America; my daughter was labeled as such (I don't know why: she never told me) when she was 5 in the Hebrew school. I do not want anybody I know going through it.

Which is why I am so adamant about the need to raze distinctions in treatment of BTs and FFBs. Judaism is a journey, and people are at different levels up this mountain. It is wrong to judge them as human beings by how far they are from the start.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Alex,

The situation in Israel is far worse than described by the Jewish Press for America. Here the students are officially classified as chozrei btevah and marked as such. The classes are divided into people whose parents never worked for a living, those who worked for a living or, heaven forbid, still work for a living or chozrei btevah. It is not know exactly how long these differences are maintained but 10 years as a kollel student is not enough. The really sad thing is that the sephardic cheredi yeshivot, who suffered under these criteria in askenazic yeshivot, have adopted them themselvese.
I have heard and seen these criteria endorsed by every Rav in the Cheredi community and can certainly not be considered a tiny minority. This system is widely reported in the Israeli press so I don't think I am describing something which would better not be described.

Aryeh Shore

Quote “This system is widely reported in the Israeli press so I don't think I am describing something which would better not be described.” I don’t think that what is reported in the heavily anti-Chareidi Israeli press is a good source for a fair summarization of the situation. “I have heard and seen these criteria endorsed by every Rav in the Cheredi community and can certainly not be considered a tiny minority.” This gives me more reason to doubt that there is something more dealing with here than what is being reported. Do these people expect us to believe that the Rabbanim are making these separations just to make an elitist class? I find this very difficult to believe. I feel there is a lot of, at best, half-truths being reported here. (whether or not there was a Bernie Goldberg type reporting on the Israeli media or not.) This seems like the regular anti-Chareidi propaganda trying to portray Chareidi as elitist (since they themselves feel inferior to them.)
I cannot say for sure, since I’m not there, but the whole thing smells suspicious.

I want to make clear my position on this and I hope people don’t misconstrue what I’m saying. (This is a very sensitive issue were things could be taken the wrong way.) My point is that rejection doesn’t equal degradation per se. For instance, if someone comes to you for a very large loan and you have no way of finding out how his credit history is, do you lend him the money? Most people wouldn’t lend a good chunk of their life savings on someone who they don’t know if they would pay them back. Are they calling this guy an evil person or an untrustworthy person? No, it’s just that I can’t take a chance at that (and we all know people that trusted people with loans and never got repaid.) Lets say that there is a problem with the credit score, it could be a valid reason that is no fault of his that he defaulted on his previous loans, yet the risk of lending to him is too great to accept on himself. So, it’s not personally degradation, just that I feel it’s a risk that I can’t take because I see there could be a place for potential problems, even though they’re very well could be unfounded. So I don’t see a rejection for a Shidduch (which could be a lot worse than not paying back a loan. This is a person’s life we’re talking about.) is not necessary a degradation on someone’s character. Even in the laws of Loshen Harah, even when you can’t accept it to be true, you still have an obligation to be wary of what you were told and not to put down your guard and discount completely what was told to you. (This was the mistake of Gedalya that didn’t even want to be wary that there was a plot to assassinate him, and he was eventually killed)



Quote”- I can give you an example of a Chareidi who went shooting in the Machpelah cave, Baruch Goldstein.“ I wouldn’t call Baruch Goldstein Chareidi, he was from a very left wing fringe of Orthodoxy, but the point is well taken, and the truth is that there are a lot of Chareidi families that I wouldn’t not Mishadech with them for various reasons, or at least they wouldn’t be #1 on the list. Would you Mishadech with Boruch Goldstein’s kids? They could be very good kids regardless with what their father did, yet I’m sure you’ll be very wary to make the Shidduch.

Quote “. I would give my daughter to a scholar with no pedigree over an ignoramus whose great-great-grandfather was even the greatest scholar in” that’s correct, because the “bums” of FFBs don’t get good Shidduchim either. (Mothers tell their children don’t do things because it would affect Shidduchim [“what kind of Shidduch would you get if you don’t learn?”]) Where talking about that there are abundance of scholarly FFBs on the “market” that have great families, so the question goes, if having the choice between everything being the equal which Shidduch would you pick? The proof is, when the BTs’ children get marry, do they marry them off to BTs or do they marry them off to FFBs?

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if having the choice between everything being the equal which Shidduch would you pick?

The one she loves.

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The proof is, when the BTs’ children get marry, do they marry them off to BTs or do they marry them off to FFBs?

I am not familiar with the present situation; I wouldn't know.

But "Am-Yisrael Chai Ki-Am-Yisrael Echad." Even from the unemotional, goal-oriented position (the goal being survival of the Jewish people), the sooner we stop discriminating the better.

And BTW, the greatest scholar of the 2nd century BCE was a BT.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Alex,

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And BTW, the greatest scholar of the 2nd century BCE was a BT.

Are you referring to R'Akiva?

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If having the choice between everything being the equal, which Shidduch would you, pick?

The one she loves.”

I 1st need to explain how the Shiduch process works in the average Orthodox way. In most Orthodox circles, the boys and girls are separated socially in their early years. (There are some fringe Orthodox circles that have mixed genders socially through their teens, but this is not the norm, nor fits well into Halacha.) Thus it’s not a question of “falling in love” with someone. When someone comes of age that he wants to get married then the Shiduch process starts. A 3rd party proposes the match. The families then make their research into the potential candidate and their families. By the time he/she starts, that have a few names lined up, in which they pick from the best of which is available, if that doesn’t work, it’s on to the 2nd name and so on until they eventually get engaged to someone. So practically, you try people out one at a time, which you always pick the best on paper to be your best chance. So the question is who gets “a chance at bat.” So this is what meant by my question, while picking out who your daughter would meet in order to give 1st chance to meet and build a relationship with, who would you pick?

“And BTW, the greatest scholar of the2nd century BCE was a BT” you can go back a few centuries and have the greatest scholar converts (shmaya and Avtalyon.) But, to be honest, these are not the majority of cases (not being their own fault.) Yes, there are some that become scholars. Some are geniuses that grasp Talmud quick and are able to make up for lost time (and they generally get good Shiduchim ). Some spend many years in Kollel making up for lost time and eventually becomes a scholar (like a friend of mine in my kollel.) But for most, it’s too late to make up the vast amount of ground to cover in the short years that they have to grow. For instant, an average BT is not introduced to Torah until he’s in collage. Until he gets “into it” and then start learning the skills needed to learn Talmud etc. until he gets married and needs to earn a living and can only dedicate some of his free time to learning, you don’t have more than 2 years dedicated completely to advanced learning, which to the FFB is expected to have around 10 years of uninterrupted advanced learning even for the eventual layman. Most of them live through their kids, giving them the opportunity that they never had, thus many of their children become great scholars and are among the best in Yeshivos.

I understand, and I am familiar with the process of Shidduch, but it all makes it sound like the girl is a prize for being a good scholar. As a father of two girls, one of whom is a teenager, I cannot possibly consider the girls as prizes, or even more derogatory - as my ways into scholarly families. They are not. They have their feelings, their likes and dislikes, their special needs, their good and their bad sides. But look at selection of a future bridegroom as a game of baseball - I will not. A Jewish girl deserves to be treated with as much respect as does a Jewish scholar, and of course when the time comes, I will consider her feelings first and the candidate's diplomas and family tree second or even third. As it was said on the other thread, even the best Torah scholar can be a horrible human being, totally incompatible - spiritually, emotionally, sexually, etc. with his bride-to-be.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Alex,

The daughter is not a prize for anyone (they don't tell you to mail her to this address.) She has to like him and want to marry him. Of corse, part of the researching into the person is how is his character traits. Does he have a temper? Is he kind and considerate?etc.
The consideration of having a scholar as a husband is from the girls wanting. A lot of girls nowadays want their husbands to be scholars. They don't want them to be ignoramases. They don't want those that know less than they do, or can't read Hebrew fluently. They don't want to marry into families that they can't relate to. They also want to have in-laws which they can't eat in their houses.If a girl doesn't want a Kollel guy, she doesn't get a kollel guy. If a girl wants a Kollel guy and meets a potentel one and doesn't like him, then she's off to the next one (nothing personal.) My wife met 5 scholars before she met me and thought they were all dull, so she didn't marry them. With me, she enjoyed our conversations a lot, so she agreed to marry me (let the buyer beware )
So this is not only from the parents perspective but also from the daughter's.