Alex,

I couldn't agree with you more about what should be. However, as I implied people will always be people. As Jews we should not "go with the flow" we should always be striving to advance in all capacities that contribute towards our perfection.

Furthermore, I once heard a holy Russian Jew cry how in Russia he was a Jew and in America he is a Russian.

However, I believe you sir might be guilty of what you yourself adamantly detest regarding labeling and assumptions. I refer to your degredation of Baruch Goldstein. You nor I do not know what transpired that day in the mearas hamachpailah. We are only aware of the version provided by not so trustworthy arab folk. How do you know that he was deranged or a left wing nut? I suggest you, as I do, assume that he was accosted by violent thugs and had no other options among the few alternative versions if you need to fulfill your curiosity.

I think it's unfair to characterize Alex for this, since it was not only the arab press, but also the press of the whole world that took it up, and the Israeli Gov. didn't do much to defend it (for whatever reason.) My point that he wasn't Chareidi, as the anti-Chareidi press always try to portray controversial Orthodox figures like Baroch Goldstein and YAgil Amir (even though both of them were Modern Orthodox and not Ultra Orthodox "Chareidi".) Even in that, they were (for lack of a better word) Ultra religous Zionist as BG being a settler and YA being very political Zianistic zealet.

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Furthermore, I once heard a holy Russian Jew cry how in Russia he was a Jew and in America he is a Russian.

The story of my life, too... And the story of life of all Russian Jews who came to America.

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However, I believe you sir might be guilty of what you yourself adamantly detest regarding labeling and assumptions. I refer to your degredation of Baruch Goldstein.

Rav Chaim, thank you for standing up for me.

No; actually, it was based on the information provided by the press all over the world - not
Arab-driven, but JPost and Haaretz. The only good that came out of it was that Israel stepped away from ultranationalist movements by delegitimizing Kahanist parties.

I intentionally did not put Yigal Amir as an example: the assassination of Rabbin was a purely political affair, even if YA is religious.

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Rav Chaim or Alex

I doubt either of you disagree that if you must judge an observant Jew you must do so within the constraints of halacha and/or assumption making. Even if the JP or Maariv were to present hard evidence (they don't)it is at best Lashon Harah - gossip -against Baruch Goldstein and is most likely motzei shem rah - false slander -against a dead man who cannot utter forgiveness. As a Jew I have the responsability to create a mechuh -protest- against the slandering of another Jew no matter how different than me.

I will further assert that logic would dictate that an otherwise non-violent man who stands to create 7 orphans and 1 widow who knows the laws of suicide will not start random arab shooting as the JP and Maariv claim.

Furthermore, based on your feelings of negative asumption making I would say that you don't disagree with the evils of anyone in any circumstance making assumptions against anyone based on heresay.

Shragie, I hope you agree that "Lo tirtzach" is at least as important as "Lo taase lecha pesel": there are no unimportant commandments, especially among the negative ones. My heart goes out to his widow and children, and I did grief for the loss of a Jewish life. Of course I did not know him personally, but if I did, I think I would at least try to talk him out of it. There was nobody around him to disperse the fog off of his mind. Someone once said that a Jew is such a person who when hearing that another Jew did something bad, he feels shame. I feel - not shame, but uneasiness - for what Goldstein did. It's my personal feeling. Just as I will always feel the same uneasiness about Pinchas and his killing of the Midian woman and the Jewish nobleman. Torah does not say that Hashem told Pinchas to do what he did, does it? So in a sense it was a murder, yet a forgiven one. Well, I hope Godstein's soul joins the other souls of Jewish zealots. Talmud says there is a special place in heaven for them, doesn't it?

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Alex,

You say you know the events that lead to Baruch Golstein's actions I say that noone knows and will logically adhere to alternative answers. Let us respectfully disagree.

However, it is incumbent upon all to assume that Baruch Goldstein as well as all of kllal Yisroel is righteous. There is no room for publically denouncing him.

I will also say that your pre Baruch Golstein original post of labeling and assumptions against any group among the jewish people is one that should warrant much attention. It is not only unintelligant it is also hurtful. Unfortunately, it gets swept under the poverbial carpet.

Alex -
I must comment on your statement about Pinchas. Chazal unequivocally tell us that Pinchas performed a Mitzvah! It was not a "in a sense it was a murder, yet a forgiven one" in any fashion. There is a Halacha "kanaim pogin bo" and Pinchas rose to the occasion and killed Zimri ben Salu and Cozbi bas Tzur. This took tremendous courage on his side. And Hashem rewarded him – "es Brisi Shalom".
We must always understand Tanach within the framework of Chazal.

Shragie,

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You say you know the events that lead to Baruch Golstein's actions I say that noone knows and will logically adhere to alternative answers. Let us respectfully disagree.

Okay.

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However, it is incumbent upon all to assume that Baruch Goldstein as well as all of kllal Yisroel is righteous. There is no room for publically denouncing him.

Is he different from any other Jew?

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I will also say that your pre Baruch Golstein original post of labeling and assumptions against any group among the jewish people is one that should warrant much attention. It is not only unintelligant it is also hurtful. Unfortunately, it gets swept under the proverbial carpet.

I am not sure what you mean, Shragie. Yes, it was I who gave the example of what Baruch Goldstein did, but it was given in a certain context; you seem to be pulling it out of the context. And if we assume that all Klal Yisroel is righteous - then why is there a difference between BTs and FFBs?

If I offended you, please accept my public apologies.

Gilad,

I do understand what Pinchas did, and why he did it, and I always defend him when the Gentiles tell me that our Torah approves of murder. But it is one thing to understand, and another thing to feel. I did not say that I do not understand why he killed Zimri and Cozbi. I said that I feel uneasiness about it; that's all. And if we cannot discuss our feelings about certain Parshioth on this forum, then where?

Chazal say that Hashem removed His Presence from the Second Temple and allowed it to be destroyed because of hatred among the Jews: the zealots, the sicarii; the Gentile influences and the opposition ot them; the fragmentation among the intelligentsia over the letter of the Law and the spirit of the Law...

I would like to point out that Alex and Shragie are not arguing in essence of which acts are right or wrong. What they’re basically arguing whether you can take the media’s account of the incident, or is this bias in the media that is both anti-Israeli and anti-religious, thus, since they weren’t there when it happened, do we question how they formed their opinion what happened. (Of course Goldstein wasn’t there to give his side of the story.) So do we automatically accept what the media tells us, therefore Alex has the right to accept this as fact (see Shobbos 56 that Dovid didn’t accept LH, since he drew (the wrong) conclusion from what he saw. Or do we have to be very wary of the media’s account and question it and give Goldstein the benefit of the doubt to something that it would seem doubtful for him to instigate such an act.

Also, Alex, nobody ever suggested that BTs are any less righteous than FFbs, all we were saying that the reason that they’re not #1 on the Shidduch list is a social one, as explained before (which could be valid social reasons) not that they are any worse personally than anyone else.

Also, the 2nd temple is really because the strife between the religious. Yes there are religious people that rub you the wrong way (I’m going to my in-laws for the 1st days, wish me luck  ) and that causes strife, were we must work on ourselves to make peace even with people we don’t particularly like.

Rabbi Akiva, Master of Teshuvah

Rabbi Akiva, as a young man, did not know a word of Torah. He worked as a shepherd for "Ben Kalba Savua," one of the richest men in Yerushalayim. One day, Rachel, the daughter of Ben Kalba Savua, looked at Akiva and was extremely impressed by his modesty and his gentleness with her father's flocks. She also noticed in him a tremendous potential for accomplishment in Torah, although his potential was at this point totally unrealized.

Rachel approached the Shepherd Akiva and suggested that they get married. When her father found out about this, he was very upset, because he had envisioned a Torah scholar as a husband for his daughter, rather than an ignorant shepherd. In his anger, he vowed to cut the young couple off financially, leaving them penniless.

One of Rachel's conditions for marrying Akiva was that he go to a Yeshiva to learn Torah. Even though he sincerely accepted the condition and married Rachel, he initially found it extremely difficult to fulfill it. In fact, while an ignorant shepherd, he had harbored a secret hatred towards Torah scholars

Once, while shepherding his flocks, he gazed into a pool, where he saw a hollowed-out rock resting under a waterfall. He wondered how the rock, one of Nature's hardest substances, had been hollowed out. When he was told that the water had, over a long period of time, made the drastic change in the rock, he reasoned as follows:

"If a rock, though extremely hard, can be hollowed out by water, how much more so should it be possible for Torah, which is compared to water, to change my heart, which is soft. I will begin to study it, and try to become a Torah scholar."

Akiva and his son, Yehoshua, went to the same teacher at first. Together they studied the Aleph-Bet, the Hebrew Alphabet. They went on at their own pace, Yehoshua at the pace of a bright child, Akiva analyzing the meaning of each new fact and idea that he learned, deeply and thoroughly. Rachel suggested that Akiva go to a Yeshiva and devote himself full-time, for twelve years, to the study of Torah. Having the permission and encouragement of his wife, Akiva went to study in the Yeshiva of the great Rabbi Eliezer ben Hirkonus.

Years passed. Akiva studied more and more material, in greater and greater depth, but remained silent in the class. When he proposed his first explanation of a difficult point at the Yeshiva, Rabbi Yehoshua ben Chananya, a colleague of Rabbi Eliezer, immediately recognized the depth and profundity of Akiva's analysis.

As more years passed, Akiva received Semichah, Rabbinic Ordination, and became known as Rabbi Akiva. He opened his own Yeshiva, which began to attract many students. At the end of a dozen years, he returned to Jerusalem, to greet his wife, accompanied by twelve thousand students. As she heard their approach, Rachel came out and, out of great love for Rabbi Akiva, and honor for the Torah, she prostrated herself at his feet. When his students moved to push her away, he restrained them, saying, "All the Torah knowledge that I have, and all the Torah knowledge that you have, are the direct results of this woman's love of the Torah!"

Ben Kalba Savua, remorseful over how he had mistreated his daughter, went to Rabbi Akiva, whom he did not yet recognize, but of whom he knew only that he was a great Torah scholar, seeking an "opening" for his vow. (Briefly, an "opening" of a vow means that if the circumstances of the vow were such that if the maker of the vow had known about some fact, he would not have made the vow, that is its "opening.")

When his father-in-law came before him, Rabbi Akiva asked him whether he would have cut off his daughter if he had known that her husband would become a Torah scholar, Ben Kalba Savua answered, "Even for one chapter, one Mishnah, one verse, I would not have done it." Then Rabbi Akiva revealed his identity.

In his joy, Ben Kalba Savua turned over half of his fortune to his daughter and son-in-law. Rabbi Akiva was now able to fulfill a promise he had made to his wife, to give her a model of Jerusalem made of gold to wear in her hair.

Later, Rabbi Akiva heard Rachel say to her neighbors that she was so happy and proud of her husband's accomplishments that she would be happy to let him go away for another dozen years, to completely realize his potential. She discussed the matter with Rabbi Akiva, he determined that she would be happy with the arrangement, and he agreed to do as his wife wished. He did that, reached his full measure of greatness, went on to become one of the eternal heroes of the Jewish People, great in Torah, great in love of Hashem, great in "Emunah," "Belief," in the Almighty, and great in appreciation of and devotion to his wife. (Masechet K'tuvot: 62b-63a)

Sometimes, a person may do Teshuvah for the "wrong" reasons. But there is a principle in the Jewish Tradition, that if a person does a good deed, such as learning Torah, even for the "wrong" reason, he or she will eventually come to do it for the right reason.

Continuing:

The Talmud is the only ancient source of knowledge about Rebbi Akiva. According to it he was born to a proselyte named Joseph, who happened to be neighbors with Hyrcanus, father of the Great Rabbi Eliezer ben Hyrcanus. He was an am ha'aretz (Hebrew: ignoramus) during his first forty years. During that period he used to say: "O that I would find a Talmid Chacham and bite him like a donkey" (Talmud tractate Pesachim, 49b).

He was the shepherd of a rich man nicknamed Kalba Savua because anyone who entered his house hungry like a dog (kalba) went out satiated (savua) (a reference to his hospitality toward guests). Kalba Savua's daughter, whose name was Rachel, noticed his modesty and good nature. She saw that he had a great mind, and that if he would put his mind to The Almighty's Divine Torah, he would flourish into a great teacher in Israel. She spoke with Akiva about G-d and the role of the Jewish people, and it sparked his interest. One day Akiva came to Rachel by a river, and asked her why the Jewish people, if they were G-d's Chosen people, had to suffer so much. She replied,

"The greater, the higher a man's task is, the more he must endure, the more he must fight and suffer. An ordinary simple man who doesn't bother about anything usually lives a quiet an undisturbed life. The man who wants to do something, who is concerned with the general welfare has troubles and worries. When G-d elevated Israel and chose us from all the nations, He placed us in the midst of every conflict. Wherever something great is being fought for, Israel must be there. Few peoples rise above the others, to put their foot on the neck of the nations. The various generations come up, grow, flourish and disappear. Israel must play its part in all of them. Of course, that involves suffering and sorrow. Sometimes we are hurled down to earth, and the ploughs are drawn across our backs and we are marked by long furrows. But G-d has always raised us up again. He has never punished us as He has punished those who torment us. He has never doomed us to die like those nations who oppress us. If we must suffer more than other peoples, G-d has also given us the strength to bear our troubles; to endure."

Elijah: ---An example of an interview---

One of the most striking things about Elijah is that he has no stated ancestry.

ETP: "Moses was a much greater prophet than I -- on a whole other scale. He was born from day one with this incredible soul. He never really had to purify his body or work with it much -- his soul just overwhelmed and shone right through it. But the flip side is that when that soul left, the body was left without much real change.

My soul didn't have that same power. I had to work very hard for many years to achieve prophecy. So that body I had worked with became purified, approaching something like Adam's body before the fall.

Well, aside from the obvious stuff, like saving people in big-time trouble, testing people so they can receive their reward, message delivery -- that sort of thing -- my main position is in education. In each generation, there are key individuals who are to receive crucial new revelations of the inner soul of the Torah. Major secrets of the cosmos and beyond. My job is to teach them those things so they will understand them thoroughly and be able to teach them to others.

Some of my better known students were Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai, who recorded much of what I taught him in the Zohar, Rabbi Isaac Luria, who learned how to explain the Zohar to his students, and Rabbi Israel Baal Shem Tov, who began the Chassidic movement.

Q?: You mean to say that every person can achieve what you have?

ETP: In a certain way, every time you do a mitzvah, you are achieving just that: You are making your physical body and your physical world into a temple for the Divine. As for permanent status -- that's the idea of the Resurrection of the Dead, which is a fundamental belief in classic Judaism. That's a period following the messianic era when bodies will once again be in the state of Adam and Eve. Eventually, all of physicality will be in that state. That was the original goal, so it really is quite inevitable."



It should be noted that in this present age of great assimilation and emancipation an unprecedented return of Jews to true Torah values has taken place. This “Baal Teshuvah” phenomenon is on the increase and paves the way for a full return in the messianic era.

Before 6000?