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I am interested to know if Jews growing up assimilated have greater psychological problems or a tendency to behave badly, including immorally. I am not thinking about this in a secular, eg, secular psychological way though of course whether it is true or not is important.
I was not thinking primarily of Jews who have become Christian or members of some other religion though this is part of the topic. My interest is more to do with Jews who have no real religious affiliation (even if they have been exposed to other religions). I guess I am basically wondering if there is something about having a Jewish soul that is cut off from Judaism that leads the person to do wild or crazy things, etc. And I am interested in learning the explanation to this if it is true. And, if it is true, what is the cure? I have some ideas on this one, but I am sure I don't know that much on this score really. |
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I might think that a Jew trying to throw off their yoke of Torah, and similarly those antisemites who's reason for hating Jews is that Torah represents Hashem's definition of what is moral -- and they wish to define their own morality....
That throwing off Torah and thus morality is a step toward accepting immoral (certainly by Torah moral standards by definition but at other levels) standards of behavior. But in contrast, apparently to many psychological practicioners who are other than NEFESH members, Jewish practice may well represent irrational behavior in the eyes of the secular psychologist... I have often wondered if our role model Nachshon ben Aminadav would be seen through a psychologist's eyes as having an "irrational expectation of being taken care of" or however the actual DSM IV criteria label name is worded. Or similarly if everyone mindful of Pirkei Avos' guidance to remember Hashem's Watchful Eye is seen as paranoid? Or if Jewish style of dress, or simply a kippah, or tzitzis, or anything else, would be seen by such a practicioner as a sure sign of obsessive or compulsive behavior -- that surely noone would do such weird things if they weren't nuts? So in order even understand the meaning of your word "psychological problem" I would need to know to whom would it be a problem! For them, our dress and other rituals and Faith itself can be a problem, particularly if they are looking to find a stick with which to beat a dog. A recent commentary on Lot's chosing to live in S'dom was part of a craving for the sexual immorality that was rampant in S'dom... and that part of the reason why his daughters ended up acting strangely as recorded in the parsha is that he had such strong cravings for other immorality. At what point does a psychological or other eccentricity really become a problem to anyone? To some, eccentricities are strenghs! A subject matter expert in computer security or a Virginia Supreme Court judge describing SSN privacy risk may seem paranoid to a medical office or medical insurance company worker who regularly practices in iniscriminate use of SSA proprietary data, and who never put any thought into the nuance of meaning to law SSA-3000 on the back of a US Social Security card. Even if such were true according to the definitions of modern psychological practices, if such thought allow the judge or the security consultant to earn their livelihood, maybe its not a problem even if it were a valid behavior dimension. But despite these rough edge interface points between Torah and psychology, there may well be a lot of truth to psychology, and there may well be self-destructive or socially-damaging behavioral dimensions so labeled as psychological problems which we can see from Torah truth to be wrong, and thus truly problematic. And finally, in reference to your tie-in to having a Jewish sould that is distanced from Judaism, I would remember a commentary which states that the Yetzer Hara is particular strong in a person with Torah potential. To the degree that each individual Jew has such "taryag machine" potential, perhaps Jews with Torah potential do have a greater hurdle to overcome to neutralize their Yetzer Hara inclinations? If you are seeing a trend, it could be that you are perceiving Jews with tremendous Torah potetial succombing to their strong temptations because they lack the Torah wisdom for how to see these things in proper perspective? But then again, remembering a famous humorous story, the Yetzer Hara should perhaps see these Jews acting counter to and ignorant of Torah, it should say "My work is already done" and leave them alone with respect to such temptations -- temptations aren't going to pull them away from active Torah learning. I believe I have thus said nothing, but perhaps in a useful fashion? |
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is it possible that this is what the torah refers to as a blessing and a curse. jews who persue torah and mitvos bring blessing to the world and ultimately it's redemption. maybe this same coyach applied away from or (lo aleini)against torah has an affect strengthened by that neshoma's potential kedisha. the solution is simple; torah, tefilla, tzeduka, tshuvah, tzedukah, mitzvos and massim torah. (not necessarily in that order) |
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Rob
i tried to reply to individual quoutes, it did not work. so let me know if i don't get to the point. psychology is a verifiable science. like all science it needs to have reproducable results. the problem is when you have a small (minority) sample with a completely different set of rules that would completely invalidate the normally statistically reproducable results. if i come home from shul on shabbos and adjust my shoes (or serveral other potential actions) i wash my hands, after kiddush (before lechem mishna) i wash my hands again, after i have fish i wash my hands, after the meal i wash my hands again (mayim achronim). my washing has been without soap, with an inordinate amount of water, using a device (negel-vasser)with no apparent purpose, there is a ritual for the actual process (maybe three times each side, maybe alternating, and if you have ever had the pleasure [i do mean this in all sincerity] of watching tosher chasidim it can get rather elaborate). according to the standards of the DSM IV i am completely outside of statistical variance, meaning not normal. i know that it is not a clinical pathology because i understand what motivates this behavior. however, it is still a statistical variance. therefore not normal. even though it is good. |
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I have heard once from kabbalist types that the Jewish soul is constructed differently....a little exaggerated. Because of this it can handle Torah and mitzvot. However, when it does not learn Torah and do mitzvot, that energy is re-channeled to other pursuits. This is the reason why Jews will dominate whatever pursuit they choose, whether it's law, medicine, science, entertainment etc. That spark intended for Torah is used elsewhere and it excels. But there is a downside. The Jewish soul will excel in good and in evil. This is the reason why we are our brother's keeper. We look out for one another and help our brother stay out of trouble. So Torah is really indespensable to the Jewish soul. An assimilated soul is a greater risk of evil for that reason.
Now, talking about psychiatric diagnoses; they are relative. If you are obsessive compulsive...you could be a tzaddik...with all the chumrot you take on. The "normal" people in Yiddishkeit are probably the "benonim". But even then, that's debatable. I don't trust DSM IV  |
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Hi Rob.
Well said. Yes, the parameters and details certainly need to be set. And your astute noting of many of them made me realse I should have been much more specific. Sorry. I learned a lot from your tour of various possible ramifications of my vague question. It was very interesting to me and much appreciated. I wouldn't mind going up some of those paths sometime. At the moment, my focus stems from personal matters and is not at all a general looking out and assessing Jews "out there". The breath of the ones I am concerned with is very hot on my face. And I have a lot of challenges as a consequence. What I was looking at was Jews who are born assimilated; cut off from their roots. They could even be born into Christian or other families. I myself am actually an assimilited Jew, returned. But I posed my question not so much with myself in mind, though there is a partial similarity in some ways. Everbody is unique, I guess. An issue I am faced with at the moment is some still assimilated Jews , the lost ones, who are a challenge to me because they and I seem to live in different worlds. In fact this was true of me even before I returned but there are some things I have done that I would never do now. I am faced with how to deal with these people. They are close to me and Torah is not in their mindset. I am shocked and upset by some things they do. I am trying to understand so I can act well. We are talking of chalk and cheese here though all are Jews, by definition. And I feel overwhelmed by the matter.
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For me, in my struggles to be as I should, just dealing with me, I agree with you.
And I am trying to have my behaviour guided by Torah in how I treat these people, in the challenge of real life matters, some deeply upsetting and almost unbelievable to me. But the task of understanding all this is too big for me. I need guidance.
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Maybe I am raving, but this reminds me of a basic hypnotiability test I did once in psych 2. I scored zero on all tests bar one. On that I got a 1 out of 2 as I put my held out arm down. That is, I did not keep it in the set horizontal position. It had been suggested it would rise up and stay there. Me, I said "Boring" and put it down. By definition of the set up, I had been scorable. But I think I was a true zero.
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Hi Moshe,
I like that. Makes sense to me. Especially the
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I may sound shocking, but personally I do not think being assimilated necessarily means that the person is bound for trouble. One has little to do with the other. Moses knew right from wrong before he even realized he was an Israelite. And on the other end of the spectrum, it was the Israelite who told on him to the Pharaoh's servants, which caused him to flee. Job was not even a Jew.
Observance means a lot of discipline: we do not eat pork not because it is bad for the body, but just because we are specifically told not to. It takes a lot of effort to observe Shabbat regularly. It is not an easy thing to keep the house kosher, not to spread rumors, and sometimes it even takes an effort to honor one's parents. All this discipline develops our character and turns us away from trouble. Are there other ways to stay away for trouble that are accessible to assimilated, non-observant Jews? Of course there are. Sports, a healthy hobby, reading books, joining a social club, parenting... The list can be continued. Being trouble-prone has nothing to do with being an assimilated Jew. It has everything to do with a lack of discipline and willpower. |
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DSM IV is relative to what is "normal" therefore if one is out of the "norm" that a bunch of psycho-logists put together as such, then what they come to as a conclusion of any given behavior based on what the book says about it, that is the diagnosis.
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Yes, discipline and healthy diversions are good per se.
I am wondering though, whether holding certain secular beliefs, can lead a Jew, assimilated or not, into bad things. And there is a lot going on in secular society that teaches and encourages what I call immoral. If one does not have a concept of Torah morality, maybe one will do things like idolise Marilyn Manson and think drugs, alcohol, promiscuous behaviour and self-indulgence or fine. And then one acts accordingly. This is relevant to the topic and I find it helpful to kick around. But, at the same time, what of the soul?
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Good one !
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Talking about normal; can you imagine shocheling on the bus in Chicago and davening? That's not "normal"....they'll probably call the police on you. But in Jerusalem on the bus, it's perfectly normal.
Alex; Moses was suckled and raised by his own mother. Of course, he knew he was a Hebrew from birth. He had been taught Torah values from birth. If I were a strict humanist who looks at humans as simply ascended animals, I might agree with you. But there is such a thing as human consciousness which is uniquely human and different from animals. Beyond that there is a Jewish soul which is uniquely Jewish and different from other humans. If you choose not to believe that I cannot go further in any discussion with you. But you don't have to look very far to realize that this is indeed a fact. The evidence is overwhelming. Further; I didn't say assimilated Jews will end up in trouble. I said they are at greater risk for trouble. But what I mean by trouble may be quite different from what you mean by trouble. A Jew can live a very good, moral and treif eating life just like his Goy counterpart. However, the Jew would be in much greater trouble than his Goy counterpart. Why? The Goy does not have the same obligations as his Jewish counterpart. A Jewish man may go his entire life without ever donning his tefillin. To his Goy counterpart it's no big deal, but to the Jew it has profound mystical significance. So what I mean by being at greater risk for trouble is quite different. You may be a perfectly good person Goyishly speaking but have a lot of tikun to make Jewishly. |
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Hi Moshe,
I'll share something that might shock some people, but the fact is part of my story. I already said I was born assimilated. Well, it's worse than that: I didn't even know I was a Jew till I was about 8 as this fact was suppressed in my family. Even when I first knew, and the next few times I was told by a relative, and despite comments made by several outsiders, this being spaced over my earlier years, this did not register as something significant. There are probably all sorts of reasons for this but ultimately I don't really know why, though I have my theories and some suggestive incidents to back them up. But I found my way back, thanks to G-d, only thanks to G-d. The shocking bit is that I have relatives who may never have known. I myself know only because I had a lot to do with my mother's mother and some key encounters with her relatives, including her own mother, whom I did not know, when I was in my early 20s and she was a clear headed 93 year old. I guess, if I had not been told, the way things happened to bring me back, I'd be a convert , unaware of my origins. In fact I did try to convert at first as I didn't want to rock the family boat, especially as my parents are still alive and very elderly and physically fragile. I am still tormented by the fear that I might provoke their death. This background of mine, of which I have told you only a part, is where I am coming from in my thinking and experiencing on this topic. I could explain more and things would become clearer then, but I think that would be just too frank on this site. Suffice it to say that there are blood Jews in my line whom I am very challenged by. And some of the things they are doing are ghastly by orthodox Jewish standards. And they are shocking from the standards I was brought up on, which were essentially Jewish. The thing is, they think their behaviour is ok. Compare it to an assimilated Jew, unthinking of his or her Jewishness, who is a Satanist. So, what I am thinking of in terms of behaving badly, without going into the details, is not about being non-observant as such, but the big stuff, like the Ten Commandments; the really bad stuff. And I have this in my face and have to deal with it. It would be so nice to be from some fantastic Jewish family , but that is not my case and I just have to accept it and not let it get to me personally. |
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so you totally negate any metaphysical or spiritual signifigance that previous posters have brought up. your concern is keeping your house kosher; do you place equal emphasis on your house and yourself? you equate other hobbies with torah (chas v;shulom); are they really equal? |
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it's simple math if you are studying psycological phonomena in humans and your sample is exclusively from new york you are going to have a small but significant sample that represents behaviors normal to jewish people. if your sample comes exclusively from kiryas yoel, ny; your normal values would now include alot of hand washing, and we could say people in arkansas don't wash their hands as much as normal people. move your sample extraction to little rock, AR and you have the opposite. |
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1. the yetzer hara is a fierce enemy. it is vanquished by torah, mitzvos, maasim tovim a and tefilla. 2. you can be from a fantastic jewish family. you need to make one. don't let the yetzer harah, or any of it's human messengers stop you. |
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Thanks MK.
I am still working on all this. It is often a conscious effort; an act of will and choosing. And yes, the yetzer hara gets me sometimes and can really bring me down. Once down, I am its prisoner, not Hashem's servant. Not good. I am trying to learn all the time and to improve. Being able to talk to people on this site can help and you have. I appreciate that. |
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Have you seen any psychology manuals or textbooks or statistical studies which recognize this logical explanation? For example an Arkansas textbook which states excessive handwashing is a sign of obsessive behavior except when explainable by cultural or religious observance phenomenon such as the New York published work of the Kiryas Yoel or Brooklyn sample population where statistically it was normal to include negel vasser etc? |
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