This past shabbos I had the occasion to go to shul as my husband davened at an early minyan. Going to shul makes my week; I've always made it a practice to go to shul - even if I only go for a short time. My children have been raised in shul - I've taken them since they were days old. We used to live less than a block away from a shul, making it easy for us to attend. Recently, we moved to a different neighborhood, and I've been forced to find a close shul where I can daven.

This shabbos I tried out a new shul. I've heard much about the rav and thought that it was time to go - especially since I would get to go alone and really focus on my davening - being able to daven with kavana is fantastic.

Unfortunately, I was left with a bitter taste. When I walked in to the shul, I could hear a low buzz; at first I thought that I had gotten there too late and that they had made kiddush. Then I realized that I was hearing talking - TALKING - during laining. The ba'al korei had to raise his voice to be heard over the people, many times he had to stop and wait for silence before continuing. This happened also by davening. One had to strain to hear what the ba'al tefila was saying. Don't think that the talking was limited - oh no, it was equal opportunity - both men and ladies were talking away. In fact, as it was my first time in shul a couple of ladies came up to me while I was davening to talk. I nodded, smiled, and fluttered my hand - indicating, I thought, that I could not speak. One lady finally understood. Oh, she said, you are at a point in davening where you can't speak? I smiled gratefully, not telling her that I was in shul and I don't speak until after davening was over.
On the mens' side a dull roar of voices hovered over the room, many times someone banged on a shtender, even speaking: Please, shhh! -- and yet, people continued to speak.

Why don't people realize what they are giving up by speaking during davening? I exhort you, don't speak to your fellow man during davening, this is your opportunity to speak to HaKadosh Baruch Hu! Make time after davening, stand around, shmooze, but let davening be dedicated to The One Above.

I doubt that I will be returning to that shul. I was unable to concentrate there. I am very disappointed. I know that within our community there is a no-talk initiative in shuls, why are we not seeing the results?

Hopefully, my children will see why we walk the extra distance back to my old shul because there no one talks and I want my children to know how to behave during davening.

Don't talk in shul!!!!

I couldn't agree more!! Wait until Oneg Shabbat to prattle! The same thing happened to me this Shabbos and I was really irritated. They weren't quite as loud as you are describing, but OY VEY! It doesn't matter how loud it is if it disturbs your precious time. Sadly, exhortations to keep quiet during Shul are only heeded by those who already do! The prattlers never think you are talking to them! Yocheved

Great article I found on this issue by Rabbi Moshe Meir Weiss - Rav of Agudas Yisroel of Staten Island, NY

Noo-Noo, How Bad Can It Be Already?

Here's the first few paragraphs of the article:

Hey! Do you think the President will dodge this one?” How about the investments this year? Does the stock market have another good year left, or are you switching to real estate? “What d' ya say to what happened at the Olympics? ‘What’s going on with those Mets? Will they ever make a decent trade?”

Does this sound familiar? Unfortunately, I’m not refer ring to the chatter around the swimming pool or even at the local tavern. These are the common conversation swirls found at your local shul!

Why does this happen? How sinful is it? And how can we get out of the habit? Finding out why shmoozing is prevalent in shuls is easy. The yetzer hara concentrates on the crucial mitzvos of life. In fact, many people neglect Torah study simply because the yetzer hara works overtime just on this mitzvah. For similar reasons, there is a great deal of marital discord, for the evil one pulls out all the stops to disrupt things when the existence of the Shechina in the home is at stake (as is the case when there’s shalom bayis).

My personal "Pet Peeve" on my Global Yeshiva profile is:

Pet Peeve: People talking in Shul, esp. during the quiet shemoneh esrei

Here here.

May I ask what "Here here." means?

It means "I agree wholeheartedly".

I learnt something new. Thanks. Here Here. [And everywhere too.]

HA-HA-HA-HA!

Just a note: The idiom is actually spelled "hear, hear." Which makes a lot more sense, actually.

See here:
http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?gwp=13&s=hear%20hear

"Hear hear is an expression which originated as hear him, usually repeated. This imperative was used to call attention to a speaker's words, and naturally developed the sense of a broad expression of favor. This is how it is still used today, although one can always vary one's tone to express different sentiments; the Oxford English Dictionary noted around the turn of the century that the phrase, is now the regular form of cheering in the House of Commons, and expresses, according to intonation, admiration, acquiescence, indignation, derision, etc.

As a parliamentary cheer, hear him, hear him! is first recorded in the late 17th century and continued into the 19th; the reduction to hear! or hear, hear! occurred by the late 18th century. However, the use of the verb hear as an imperative meaning listen! is older: a notable example is the parliamentary-sounding Then cried a wise woman out of the city, Hear, hear (King James Bible, 2 Samuel xx 16).

Aside from the interjection, a number of other forms are found, such as a hear, hear (originally, of course, a hear him) 'a cheer'; hear-hear 'to shout "hear, hear!"'; and hear-hearer 'a person who shouts "hear, hear!"'."

In terms of talking in shul, I had a recent post on my blog on this subject:
http://parsha.blogspot.com/2006/07/why-i-support-talking-in-shul_26.html

I'm sitting here with my mouth hanging open. First I was shocked to hear that people would act so disrespectfully in that shule. Then I was totally shocked to hear that it happens often enough to have articles written about the problem!

I have never had the misfortune of attending a shule like that. Not in an Orthodox temple, not in a Reform temple, not even during children's services!!!

I can remember being in college and being very embarrassed that some of my fellow students were talking while the teacher was talking. That is disrespectful enough. But to be disrespectful to G-D????? In His own house?? To say to Him, in equivalent, "I have more important things to think about than You" is unthinkable.

Rivkaleah, if you would like to give this shule a second chance, here is what I would recommend: Write an anonymous letter and send copies to the rabbi, president, head of the sisterhood, head of whatever other influential groups may be there. Don't even mention that you're new. Simply state that you are disturbed by the talking during services. (I'm sure there's a silent majority who agrees with you - pun intended!) Say that you love the fact that everyone is so friendly with each other, and that you understand WHY everyone wants to talk to each other, to catch up on what's been happening since they last saw each other. Then suggest that an announcement be made and/or placed in the bulletin that congregants regularly come to shule EARLY - 15 minutes before services are due to start. This way everyone will be able to catch up on the latest news and not be distracted during services by having to control their impulse to talk.

Just a thought.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Paulette:
Not in an Orthodox temple, not in a Reform temple,

[/QUOTE

The only Temples there ever were, were the first and second Temples in Jerusalem. All other places of Jewish worship should be referred to as Shuls or Synogogues. Except for the third Temple in Jerusalem, of course.

My parents and several others I know have used the word "temple" to mean any synagogue, and I had assumed that was acceptable. Thank you for correcting me!

You're welcome!

quote:

Originally posted by Raybin:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Paulette:
Not in an Orthodox temple, not in a Reform temple,

[/QUOTE

The only Temples there ever were, were the first and second Temples in Jerusalem. All other places of Jewish worship should be referred to as Shuls or Synogogues. Except for the third Temple in Jerusalem, of course.

Dear Raybin,
If she would have referred to them as Bais HaMikdash, I would see your point. but temple is an English word. According to dictionary.com
it means"
A building dedicated to religious ceremonies or worship.
Temple Either of two successive buildings in ancient Jerusalem serving as the primary center for Jewish worship.
Judaism. A synagogue, especially of a Reform congregation.
Mormon Church. A building in which the sacred ordinances are administered.
Something regarded as having within it a divine presence.
A building used for meetings by any of several fraternal orders, especially the Knights Templars.
A building reserved for a highly valued function: the library, a temple of learning.
Temple Either of two groups of buildings in London, the Inner Temple and the Middle Temple, that house two of the four Inns of Court and that occupy the site of the medieval Knights Templars establishment."
As a matter of fact if you look in whitepages.com you'll see in New York 29 "Templer"s and 3 "Templar"s, and the ones I spoke to are not Kohanim or Leviim.
We always called reform house of worship a temple.
Take care.
Mark

not talking in shul is old fashon to reform

The following comes from "Likutei Halachos Sheadam Dash B'akeivav - A Small Compendium of Commonly Neglected Laws" -

Levity is forbidden in synagogues and batei midrash. Levity includes joking, laughing, fooling and idle conversation, among other things. Shulchan Aruch, O”Ch 151.

Idle conversation even includes talk about secular subjects that is permitted elsewhere, such as business matters, not to mention generally forbidden talk, such as lashon hara, rechilut and vexatious speech. Mishneh Brura, ibid.

During the Chazan’s repetition of Shmoneh Esrei the congregation must remain silent, concentrate and answer “amen” after each bracha. If there are not at least nine concentrating on the brachot and answering “amen,” then they are virtually brachot levatala. Therefore, each person should conduct himself as if there will not be nine concentrating without him. Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chayim 124.

Conversation is strictly forbidden during the Chazan’s repetition of Shmoneh Esrei. If one speaks at this time, his sin is too great to bear, and he must be reprimanded. Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chayim 124.

Even reciting Tehilim or other prayers and learning Torah are forbidden during the Chazan’s repetition of Shmoneh Esrei. Mishneh Brura, ibid.; Derech Moshe §28.

We have witnessed the destruction of a number of synagogues due to this sin. Mishneh Brura, ibid., quoting Eliyah Rabba.

Once Kriat HaTorah has begun, it is forbidden to talk, even words of Torah. Restrictions apply even between aliyot. It is highly questionable whether one may even learn Torah silently instead of following the Torah reading. Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chayim 146; Beur Halacha, ibid.

One who talks during Kriat HaTorah flagrantly enacts the dreaded verse (Bamidbar 15:31), “d’var Hashem baza - despising the word of G-d.”

It is forbidden to talk or learn during any other part of t’fila, even during the recitation of supplementary piyutim that one is not accustomed to say. Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim 68.

Idle conversation is forbidden even when the congregation is not praying, i.e., before and after t’fila. Derech Moshe §29.

It is a mitzva to attend synagogues and batei midrash, but if someone engages there in idle conversation, his transgression outweighs the mitzva. Derech Moshe §29.

If a person cannot control his talking in the beit k’neset, it is preferable that he pray at home and not attend the beit k’neset at all. Kaf Hachaim, Orach Chayim 151.

Every congregation should appoint special monitors from among its elders and most important members to prevent talking and other inappropriate behavior. Morah Mikdash. Those who talk should be rebuked, and even embarrassed publicly, despite wealth or position. Derech Moshe §29; Vavei HaAmudim, Amud HaAvoda 10.

A person must make it clear to others that he does not talk in the beit k’neset, and he should not be concerned that they might view the observance of these halachot as arrogance on his part. Peleh Yoetz.

The first step to observing k’dushat beit k’neset is avoiding the wrong company there. Rav Avigdor Miller, z”l.

One who talks in a beit k’neset or beit midrash is an ignorant fool who shows his contempt for Hakodosh Boruch Hu, drives out the Shechina and causes it to depart from Klal Yisrael. He is a transgressor who induces others to sin, causes the galut to be prolonged and prevents prayers from being heard. He has no share in the G-d of Israel. Zohar; Or Tzadikim; Shaarei Teshuva; Hagahos Yesh Nochalin L’avi HaShalah.

Of such a person it is written (Yeshayahu 43:22), “Lo oti karata Ya’akov,” indicating that he is not worthy of his Jewish ancestry. Mishneh Brura 56:1, quoting M’sechet Derech Eretz.

Hashem deflects every accusation of the Satan against Klal Yisrael with His attribute of Mercy. But when the Satan mentions their idle chatter and disrespect in the beit k’neset, Hashem has no response, so to speak, for even gentiles conduct themselves with awe and reverence in their places of worship. Hashem thereupon gives the Satan permission to wreak destruction. Mikdash Maat 2:2; Derech Moshe §8; Aruch HaShulchan, Orach Chayim 124:12; Yalkut HaUrim.

Talking in a beit k’neset or beit midrash therefore causes personal and communal tragedies, including plagues, epidemics, infant and childhood deaths, sickness such as cancer, heart disease and mental illness, car accidents and the like. Mikdash Maat, chap. 2 and passim.

Please follow these halachot no matter what those around you say or do. Cultivate your personal sense of Hashem’s presence, and recognize that, in a beit k’neset or beit midrash, you stand before the Shechina, literally. If you don’t believe this, can’t act on it or feel indifferent about it, you have a serious problem of fundamental faith that may be infecting all of your Torah observance and learning. Pray to the Ribono Shel Olam for help and seek guidance from an authentic Torah personality.

Beware of parsha pamphlets, news sheets and similar materials that are distributed in many batei k’neset (especially those that may contain a few “vortlach,” but are often read mainly for their social/communal announcements, ads and personal greetings). Reading such materials in the beit k’neset often results in bitul t’fila, chilul beit k’neset and violation of the halachot set out above, among others. They should not be read at any time during t’fila. Encourage the publishers of such materials to take steps to prevent people from reading them at inappropriate times, such as distributing them through Jewish businesses and schools, instead of batei k’neset, featuring divrei Torah and halachot about t’fila in every issue, and including a prominent legend requesting that they not be read during t’fila.

quote:

Originally posted by Raybin:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Paulette:
Not in an Orthodox temple, not in a Reform temple,

[/QUOTE

All other places of Jewish worship should be referred to as Shuls or Synogogues.

I don't think that a Reform - place where people congregate to "pray" should be called a Synogogue.

Hear Hear!

We still have to deal with Rivkaleah's question:

quote:

Why don't people realize what they are giving up by speaking during davening?

I think the question notes the answer, people don't realize what they are giving up by speaking during davening. Davening is about a conversation with G-d, about taking the time to become more aware of G-d and what He wants from us. If someone is fundamentally not really intersted in that, or at least not in the format set down in our Siddur, then they are going to get bored. After all, 2 or 3 hours is a long time to be doing something that one is essentially not interested in doing. There are many reasons to go to shul besides Davening, and one of them is to meet and hang out with people that one enjoys hanging out with. What this means is that if we want people to go to shul and daven then we have to help them appreciate and enjoy davening so that their focus and concern in shul is on the tefillah. The issues involved here are complex and need to be recognized as such. You can't quote a halacha in the Shulchan Aruch to combat a societal phenonomen, except to show where our priorities should lie. It is true that we need to live according to the Shulchan Aruch, but we also need to recognize that many people who are Shomer Shabbas and Kashrut do not consult the Shulchan Aruch for other areas of their lives (even though they should), and davening is one of those areas. Of course, this is a problem that should also be addressed, but this is a different problem. So if we want to change this phenomenon (as oppossed to expressing our frustration about it, which is also legitimate), then we need to understand what is effective and what is not. As such, here are some of my suggestions as to how to address this issue:

1) The Rabbi of the shul should dedicate some of his weekly drushot (i.e., sermons) to talking about Tefillah. These talks should first and foremost focus on the actual Tefillot themselves, their meaning and purpose and then on the halachot that relate to those tefillot. It wouldn't hurt to throw in some machshava (i.e., philosophy) behind the Halacha (i.e., why the Halacha is that way and not another. The point is to educate people about the tefillot so that they can feel more intellectually connected (with the hope that there is some emotional, spritual influence from the intellectual understanding).

2) Have more in-depth programming and classes in shuls and schools about Tefillah. Some possibilities include discussion groups, special shiurim (i.e., classes), retreats, etc. These programs and classes should both seek to educate people about tefillah, their meaning, their halchas, etc. as well as offer personal experiences which work to personally connect people to davening. [Ultimately speaking people need to feel spiritually, halachically, emotionally, and intellctually connected to davening.]

3) Work with the kids! Adults are oftentimes set in their ways. Kids, on the other hand, are much more open to differnt perspectives. Working with kids means working with our future. I heard a story of a Rabbi in a shul that sounds similar to this who focused most of his attention on educating the kids and dramatically turned the shul around.

Well, those are three of my ideas. I'd be interested to hear others. I'd also be interested to hear other peoples opinions as to why people talk in shul.

All the best,

Moshe Morris