It is worthwhile noting that there are two issues here.
1) What one is allowed to talk about in Shul at any time.
2) At what times one may talk about those permitted subjects.

Regarding 1) it is interesting to note that the Mishna Berurah mentions that the Ari Z"l was particular to not even speak Mussar in Shul lest it lead to speaking about other things. Thus we can see the severity with which he viewed these issues.

As for 2) the Halocha clearly states that it is forbidden to speak during Davenning or Leining - independant of the subject matter.

quote:

Originally posted by Raybin:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Paulette:
Not in an Orthodox temple, not in a Reform temple,

[/QUOTE

The only Temples there ever were, were the first and second Temples in Jerusalem. All other places of Jewish worship should be referred to as Shuls or Synogogues. Except for the third Temple in Jerusalem, of course.

While this is correct, please bear in mind that the synagogue is referred to as a "miqdash me`at," or small temple.

quote:

Originally posted by Dovid Samson:
the Halocha clearly states that it is forbidden to speak during Davenning or Leining - independant of the subject matter.

It has been humorously noted that one stops being regarded as a hozer biteshuva, and becomes "eine fun unzerer" when he starts talking duiring daveing.

Shalom, Dovid Samson,

First of all, welcome to the forum!

Second of all, regarding your second point, the Halocha most definitely doesn't clearly state the during leining it's prohibited no matter what - I advice you check Siman 146 in the Mishna Berura.

Gut voch!
Dovi

As for 2) the Halocha clearly states that it is forbidden to speak during Davenning or Leining - independant of the subject matter.[/QUOTE]

Dear David,
As far as talking during davening is concerned, I thought that the Shulchan Arech says that that you can't talk from Boruch Sheamar until after Shemona Esrai (plus Tachanun)?
Sincerely,
Mark

quote:

Originally posted by Rav Alter:

quote:

Originally posted by Raybin:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Paulette:
Not in an Orthodox temple, not in a Reform temple,

[/QUOTE

The only Temples there ever were, were the first and second Temples in Jerusalem. All other places of Jewish worship should be referred to as Shuls or Synogogues. Except for the third Temple in Jerusalem, of course.

While this is correct, please bear in mind that the synagogue is referred to as a "miqdash me`at," or small temple.

However, a place where members of the Reform movement gather should not be called a synogogue. So what should one call such a place when differentiating between what is KOSHER (Orthodox) and what is not (Reform, Conservative etc.)?

Hi, I was enjoying this thread immensley. I live in a very secular area, and we often have to stop and wait for the NOISE to die down. Now I dont blame the people because they just dont know better!. HOWEVER we become VERY busy during the Yamim Noraim and I wanted to make a big colour poster or a small letter for everyone. BUT what does one say without being condescending and in such a way that very secular people would take time to read it and get the message. I was very frustrated on Shabbat as some of the ladies were talking during the Rabbi's vort and it made by blood BOIL. Any practical suggestions ?

quote:

Originally posted by Mark G:
we often have to stop and wait for the NOISE to die down. Now I dont blame the people because they just dont know better!.

I have a story to match yours. One Shabbat I davened in a shul not far from my house, although this was the first time I had davened there on a Shabbat. Besides the ballebatim who talked, during Kaddish two rabbbis were talking to each other. After the end of prayers, I went over to one and said "I heard that we are not permitted to speak during Kaddish." He asked me "What?" I repeated this, and he turned and walked away.

Now there are several issues. There is a saying that "about a Rebbe you don't ask, and about a rav you don't have to ask." We seem to have disproved that one.

But the fact that when one has the choice of answering "Amen yehei shmei rabba" or answering Kedushoh, we answer the Kaddish, because it is more important. Often people who would not dream of talking during Kedushoh have no problem talking during Kaddish.

quote:

Originally posted by Mark G:
Any practical suggestions ?

I did a search on "Google" and found these websites:

Synagogue Guidelines for a Quiet Davening
http://www.tzemachdovid.org/tzemach/daven.shtml

Shhh...it's national-you-will-remain-silent-in-shul week
http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0-/module/displaystor...ml/displaystory.html

Behavior in Shul: Some Basics http://www.project-awareness.org/page_basics.htm

Shalom all,

I think it makes everyone's blood boil, hearing people talk during davening (in fact, someone in my shul started the bizzare custom of wearing earplugs), not just on the halocha front, but also on the middos point of view as well.

But whenever I would like to go over to someone and give them a little talking to, it enters my mind that I am so unperfect myself...how can I dare go and critisize what him?!

Just a thought!
Dovi

quote:

Originally posted by Fine:
As for 2) the Halocha clearly states that it is forbidden to speak during Davenning or Leining - independant of the subject matter.

Dear David,
As far as talking during davening is concerned, I thought that the Shulchan Arech says that that you can't talk from Boruch Sheamar until after Shemona Esrai (plus Tachanun)?
Sincerely,
Mark[/QUOTE]
I meant Davenning in the broader sense, but you are correct in terms of the strict letter of the law that is the critical period.

quote:

Originally posted by Dovi:
Shalom all,

I think it makes everyone's blood boil, hearing people talk during davening (in fact, someone in my shul started the bizzare custom of wearing earplugs), not just on the halocha front, but also on the middos point of view as well.

But whenever I would like to go over to someone and give them a little talking to, it enters my mind that I am so unperfect myself...how can I dare go and critisize what him?!

Just a thought!
Dovi

A valid thought but the Torah says:"Hocheach tochiach" (sp?) ie one has a Mitzvah to rebuke ones fellow Jew. This is one of the most difficult Mitzvos to do correctly though. One has to be sure to do it in a way that he remains your "fellow Jew" and does not become alienated by your rebuke. Nobody is perfect and H-Shem knows that but yet the Mitzvah has been given to us.

quote:

Originally posted by Dovi:
Shalom, Dovid Samson,

First of all, welcome to the forum!

Second of all, regarding your second point, the Halocha most definitely doesn't clearly state the during leining it's prohibited no matter what - I advice you check Siman 146 in the Mishna Berura.

Gut voch!
Dovi

Thank you. I will have to check it out.
(PS I also hail from Jhb.)

David Samson reminds us of the mitsvah of giving tokhachah, rebuking our fellow. He concludes, "One has to be sure to do it in a way that he remains your "fellow Jew" and does not become alienated by your rebuke. Nobody is perfect and H-Shem knows that but yet the Mitzvah has been given to us."

One is obligated to remain quiet unless one has reason to believe that their words will have a positive impact. When in doubt, remain silent. It's a very difficult mitzvah to fulfill.

I really doubt there are too many talkers in shul who would change their ways because "one of those killjoys" went over to them. Perhaps if you were the shul's rav, or a close friend, or even part of his chat group who is trying to get the whole crew to switch over. But in most cases, I do not see how tokhachah would apply.

Where do we draw the line between when one might be required to give something like rebuke in order to protect the decorum or sanctity of a place, for community benefit, or simply to request that a distracting unnecessary sound be stopped for one's personal needs of concentration, but not for the purpose of giving rebuke, and even where the person being corrected or requested to be quiet will indignantly resent the matter, and giving rebuke which Micha is saying must not be given unless we know it will have a positive impact?

Are there communal or individual needs by which someone which justify a defensive action to try to quiet an offensive thing someone is doing even if it will not have a strictly positive impact?

Hello,

I think the Chofetz Chaim dicusses how to and the parameters of rebuke, but I'm not sure exactly where ... I don't have it on me right now!

Dovi

B"H

Rob,

As to your question, perhaps we can draw a parallel between one who is forbidden to speak words of Torah in a bath house and one who is forbidden to speak while in the midst of davening. The Gemara (Shabbath) says that if a bather is confronted with a question by another, in order to distance him from committing a forbidden act (להפרישו מן האיסור), he is permitted to tell him the halacha.

Since we have been prohibited (Talmud Sanhedrin) to answer a king (any Jewish king) while in the very midst of our prayer (Tefillas Shemonah Esreh), if, let's say, you have concluded your own prayer, even though others might still be in the midst of davening, perhaps you could still interject an answer to someone's question – if it meant turning him away from committing a forbidden act. This is really a hypothetical situation, and one which you might never incur.

This being a topic of "Talking" in shul, I thought it would would be very appropriate to bring up the issue with cell phones too.

Here are some of the issues:

1. You're in shul davening the quiet Shemoneh Esrei, and all of a sudden you hear Beethoven's 5th Symphony" or any other similar tune, and you lose your concentration.

2. It's the Chazzan who is repeating the Shemoneh Esrei, and the cell phone rings - and you miss out on the Amen bec. you couldn't hear the bracha.

I think that most people are lazy or have no respect for people when they go to shul if they don't put the phone on vibrate. I've seen signs put up in the many Shuls that I go to and there is always that one or two people who ignore the sign [which is put up right there when you enter, in most cases] and have their phone on the loudest ring. Then they go ahead and answer it to tell the person who called --- that they are davening, and can't talk now!

It is a huge chutzpah if someone has a cell phone, doesn't shut it off or put it on vibrate before they enter the shul or check it at all. Besides, think about the other person who is davening beside you and loses his concentration because of your phone.

Anyone not agree with me? Have similar issues with cell phones in Shul?

OY dont even let me GO down THAT path. One of the more serious (frum) shuls in South Africa has a unique way of dealing with that problem: if your cell phone goes off during davening you get a fine of R 50 (prob around $10), which goes to Tzeddakah. Im not sure but I think that the fine varies (higher) depending on where they are in the service. But of course that would never work in a more secular shul because people would get upset and not come back (which is of course worse !). I have heard cell phones going off on Shabbat!! which really upsets me of course HOWEVER NOTHING gets on my nerves more than the person who quickly walks outside and ANSWERS IT !!!!

Hello!

Mark: Do you think that really works??? The sign has been up for so long, barely anyone notices it's there anymore.... The only way, I think, to get rid of the problem, is that when the cell rings, EVERYONE just turns around and stares at the fellow. He will get such busha, I doubt he will leave it on again!

Dovi