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Originally posted by Mark G:
OY dont even let me GO down THAT path.

I wish I didn't have to bring up the topic, however, wherever I go, there is usually that one person who answers his cellphone in middle of davening.

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One of the more serious (frum) shuls in South Africa has a unique way of dealing with that problem: if your cell phone goes off during davening you get a fine of R 50 (prob around $10), which goes to Tzeddakah. Im not sure but I think that the fine varies (higher) depending on where they are in the service.

Does it really work? If anything, this, in my opinion, tells the person, that “I can talk in shul, and I'll make up for it, by giving Tzedakah”.

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But of course that would never work in a more secular shul because people would get upset and not come back (which is of course worse !)

Can you define, what you mean by “secular” and “frum”?

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I have heard cell phones going off on Shabbat!! which really upsets me of course

Some people either need to be taught by the Rabbi of the shul that it is forbidden. Or find out whether a medical necessity requires this person to have one.

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HOWEVER NOTHING gets on my nerves more than the person who quickly walks outside and ANSWERS IT !!!!

Why does that bother you? Perhaps it is important or the person answering feels that he needs to. Better for him to answer it outside then, from what I've seen and heard, a person answer his phone IN SHUL to tell the person who called that he's davening.

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Originally posted by Dovi:

The only way, I think, to get rid of the problem, is that when the cell rings, EVERYONE just turns around and stares at the fellow. He will get such busha, I doubt he will leave it on again!

There is also the need to be concerned of embarassing the person, which my be worse. "hamalbin penei chaveiro - aino chelek l'olam haba" {English translation: One who embarasses [literally makes the face of his friend white] his friend, loses his portion in the world to come.}

I agree, a public display would be unkosher (classical definition of the word). However, something should be said PRIVATELY, else we excuse and permit sin and then all may be culpable. We are still to admonish carefully an erring fellow Jew, albeit in a right heart and tactfully saving the person as much dignity as possible. There is a community accountability issue to be addressed here.

I don't think so. I got this idea from the Rabbi in my shul. I think he said this because he stood up and specifically asked that cellphones get turned off. Then people have the chutzpa to leave them on?! People with such audacity have to be taught some way to respect the mara d'asra.

Dovi

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Originally posted by Dovi:
People with such audacity have to be taught some way to respect the mara d'asra.

Dovi

I could smile at this one. If you wish to look at my note about 16 posts back, you will learn about a "mara d'atra" who speaks during qaddish. My granddaughter also came back a few months from a visit to a country whose name begins with "A". She related that the rav of the shul she went to spent part of the davening walking around the shul greeting the memebrs and wishing them a "good Shabbas."

Is this the kind of "mara d'atra" about whom you are shocked that people do not respect?

I did not read that your Rebbe had already asked for them to be turned off, excuse me. I thought it was a oversight on his part that it was left on, but if he was already asked, then yes, a public rebuke in this manner would seem to be called for. Pardoin me, I should have read al the responses to this thread.

my definition of frum and secular is quite simple: a frum shul is a shul which has about 90% of its congregation Shomer Shabbat and Kashurt and a secular shul would be the other way round. Dont get me wrong, I make NO judgments about a secular shul. In fact one gains a larger measure of satisfaction when you have secular people making a great effort to help out for Minyonim when the shul plays a lesser part in their lives. And regarding the cell phone fine, it works well for that shul because it serves as a stern reminder to people to make sure their phones are on silent or better turned off before services. Seems that people in general have LESS regard for others today. In fact it is time we all started worrying less about other peoples rights and more about our obligations !

I'm sorry Yocheved, and all. I did not mention that he mentioned this after the fact that the Rabbi of the shul already made known that a distubance like a cellphone ringing was greatly disapproved of.

Rav Alter: The mara d'asra that I speak of fortunately knows the halochos of Orach Chaim... without meaning to judge, these Rabbis you refer to need to do some chazora on it!

Eg: Whenever a meshulach goes up to speak to the Rabbi after ma'ariv, and they're still busy with Kaddish Yasom, he motions for them to wait for the mourners to finish.

This Rabbi you mentioned could have a very good reason for doing what he did: eg: it could be a kiruv, or not-so-frum shul, who to make the congregants feel welcome might need the Rabbi to go up to them and wish a Good Shabbos... one cannot judge!

Mark: Just an interesting side point: it's is very very rare to find a community like ours in the rest of the world! In other places, generally speaking, one is either frum, or off (one won't find a shul '90%' frum)... not the 'traditional' we have here! That is why the kiruv movement is so succesfull, bh, in our country, most are just one step away from the full thing!

Also, perhaps in considering others' rights, one will fulfill one's own obligations? Food for thought!

Good Shabos!
Dovi

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Originally posted by Dovi:

Rav Alter: The mara d'asra that I speak of fortunately knows the halochos of Orach Chaim... without meaning to judge, these Rabbis you refer to need to do some chazora on it!

Yes, of course. The Rambam, Hilkhot Talmud Torah 4:1, tells us exactly how to relate to such rabbis.

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This Rabbi you mentioned could have a very good reason for doing what he did: eg: it could be a kiruv, or not-so-frum shul, who to make the congregants feel welcome might need the Rabbi to go up to them and wish a Good Shabbos... one cannot judge!

In other words, to be meqarev, the rav must violate the Shulhan Arukh, and thereby teach the mequrav that he too should talk during davening? Cool!!! Or in your language, does he "fortunately know the halochos of Orach Chaim" and ignores them, or perhaps he has forgotten and needs some "chazora on it."

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Originally posted by Mark G:
I make NO judgments about a secular shul. In fact one gains a larger measure of satisfaction when you have secular people making a great effort to help out for Minyonim when the shul plays a lesser part in their lives.

Hmmm. What does the halakha say about a minyan in which there are not 10 people who are shomrei Tora umitzvot? Are we even allowed to pray in such an event?

hmm indeed. I thought that this issue was dealt with by Rav Moshe Feinstein and that he had ruled that a mechalel Shabbat person could still be counted for a minyan even if its not shas had'chak (dire circumstances) ?

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Originally posted by Mark G:
hmm indeed. I thought that this issue was dealt with by Rav Moshe Feinstein and that he had ruled that a mechalel Shabbat person could still be counted for a minyan even if its not shas had'chak (dire circumstances) ?

Both the Mishna Berura and Rav Ovadia Yosef rule the other way.

Indeed, R' SH.Z, Oyerbach quoted in Ishei Yisroel p. 138, note 52, "it is better if possible to pray in a place where there is a Minyan of observant people; however, in case of necessity . . . "

The note is tacked on to a paragraph that states that one must not count a mehalel Shabbat in a minyan. The note is chock full of references, which I would recommend to someone who has about two days free to study all the references.

But from the author's summary of the viewpoints, it is apparent that using such a person as the tenth is only in sh`at hadehaq.

Further, he brings Yalqut Yosef, where Harav Ovadiah states that if a mehalel shabbat recites qaddish (and not necessarily where there is no minyan without him), a "kosher person" ought to recite the qaddish along with him. (Which is what I observed in a Sefardi minyan I used to pray in, at work.)

Further, R' Ovadia Yosef says that we should convince a mehalel-Shabbat Kohen not to bless the congregation if he is the only Kohen.

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Originally posted by Rav Alter:

Hmmm. What does the halakha say about a minyan in which there are not 10 people who are shomrei Tora umitzvot? Are we even allowed to pray in such an event?

The word for "congregation is "TZIBUR" which are of the letters TZADIK, BEIS, (vav) REISH. The word is roshei taivos for - T-ZADIK (righteous); B-EINONIM (average) and R-ISHOIM (wicked). This means that a "tzibur" is a "congregation" that is comprised of all elements. [heard directly from Rabbi Moshe Meir Weiss shlit"a]

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Originally posted by Rav Alter:

Further, he brings Yalqut Yosef, where Harav Ovadiah states that if a mehalel shabbat recites qaddish (and not necessarily where there is no minyan without him), a "kosher person" ought to recite the qaddish along with him. (Which is what I observed in a Sefardi minyan I used to pray in, at work.)

Similarly, I think it also applies when such a person (or one who doesn't know how to read) gets called up to the Torah, that there should be someone who reads along with the one who is laining.

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The word for "congregation is "TZIBUR" which are of the letters TZADIK, BEIS, (vav) REISH. The word is roshei taivos for - T-ZADIK (righteous); B-EINONIM (average) and R-ISHOIM (wicked). This means that a "tzibur" is a "congregation" that is comprised of all elements. [heard directly from Rabbi Moshe Meir Weiss shlit"a]

Very cute, with a few errors that need not be pointed out.

But the acronym could just as well stand for "tze bimeherah rabbenu" (get out of here fast, rabbi).

And besides that, does Rav Weiss expect to make a pesaq on the basis of this liitle play on words? How DOES he pasqen in this matter?

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Originally posted by Rav Alter:

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The word for "congregation is "TZIBUR" which are of the letters TZADIK, BEIS, (vav) REISH. The word is roshei taivos for - T-ZADIK (righteous); B-EINONIM (average) and R-ISHOIM (wicked). This means that a "tzibur" is a "congregation" that is comprised of all elements. [heard directly from Rabbi Moshe Meir Weiss shlit"a]

Very cute, with a few errors that need not be pointed out.

What kind of errors? Please do tell, or if you wish, you can send me a private message.

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And besides that, does Rav Weiss expect to make a pesaq on the basis of this liitle play on words? How DOES he pasqen in this matter?

What are exactly the questions?

Rav Alter, and all, gut voch!

First of all, I never claimed to be paskening, I'm just giving an option about why the rabbi does what he does. Have you ever learnt the Chofetz Chaim?

1) To accept lashon hora is a dire sin.
2) To accept lashon hora of a talmid chacham is even more bad.
3) The Chofetz Chaim speaks especially strongly against those who spread and accept lashon hora of a Rav of a community.
4) We have the din od dan l'chaf zechus - BUT ONLY FOR BEINONIM! For a tzaddik - ONE MUST JUDGE HIM FAVOURABLY, NO MATTER WHAT.

Also, a side point; Rav Moshe Feinstein, zatzal, came after the Mishna Berura, so he knew it and still paskened what he did (hoilech achar habasra), and R' Ovadia Yoseph, shlita, is a Sephardi poseik, so I don't think his p'sakim are relevent to Ashkenazi jews.

Mark G, can you please bring the source of the R' Feinstein, I would be interested to see it inside.

Gut voch!

Dovi

Dovi asked,
"Have you ever learnt the Chofetz Chaim?"

I referred you to the Rambam, who deals specifically with our subject. Do you think that only Teimanim accept the Rambam? Have you ever learned Rambam?

"1) To accept lashon hora is a dire sin."

I related what I saw with my own eyes. What does that have to do with **accepting** LH?

"2) To accept lashon hora of a talmid chacham is even more bad."

Same comment.

"3) The Chofetz Chaim speaks especially strongly against those who spread and accept lashon hora of a Rav of a community."

Check the Rambam. We must be especially careful when someone with the title "rav" acts in a way that violates Torah. Otherwise, people will seek to imitate him. Or will consider all rabbanim to be evil.

"4) We have the din od dan l'chaf zechus - BUT ONLY FOR BEINONIM! For a tzaddik - ONE MUST JUDGE HIM FAVOURABLY, NO MATTER WHAT."

You gotta be kidding. I relate what two anonymous rabbanim did in violation of halakha, and you call them Tzadiqim! Are you serious?

"Also, a side point; Rav Moshe Feinstein, zatzal, came after the Mishna Berura, so he knew it and still paskened what he did (hoilech achar habasra), and R' Ovadia Yoseph, shlita, is a Sephardi poseik, so I don't think his p'sakim are relevent to Ashkenazi jews."

If you read Rav Ovadia's pesaqim you will note that when he pasqens only for Sefardim he indicates that; otherwise they are for all Jews. And he is back in the hospital; even Ashkenazim can pray for his recovery.

And what about the Ashkenazi posqim I quoted? I suppose you didn't have enough time before Shabas to read my posting carefully. You may want to give it another try.

Rav Alter, and all, hope that Yom Kippur this year was a good one!

Regarding the points that RAv Alter brought up:

1) I was refering to the incident you told us, where your granddaughter told you about a shul in 'A'. You didn't seem to indicate that you saw it yourself. (That answers points 1 and 2)

2) I do pray for his complete recovery.

3) I apologize for the sarcastic tone I used ('have you ever learned...'), it was completely uncalled for...sometimes I get too heated up!

4) I did check it in the Ishei Yisroel, though I would like to see Rav Moshe Feinstein, and a few others, inside before I say anything.

(A side point: One would think that the big shuls, and the kiruv organizations, are considered sha'as had'chak, right?)

5) Regarding the Rambam, a Rav 'sheaino holeich b'derech tova'. Does speaking during Kaddish mean he's going on that derech? He doesn't keep the haloch in that specific area! I agree, it is a very bad thing to speak during kaddish, and a Rav, who should be an example definitaly shouldn't, but does it become so bad that you consider him going 'off the derech?'

It is indeed a sad situation today that a stam Rabbi of a shul is not considered a tzaddik (by tzaddik I mean that he is careful to keep the mitzvos, and has middos tovos)....

Dovi

Hi, I hope you all had a meaningful Yom Kippur. I wanted to answer Rav Alter regarding the MB and R' Ovadia. Firstly I think its a Kol Vachomer if you do not count someone who is mehalel Shabbat as part of a tzibbur then a Kohein who is mehalel Shabbat should not bless the congregation so it is not a further proof. A question, the MB also brings down that a person who is considered a true mechallel Shabbat b'farhesia in the original sense is required to always deem them to be mechallel Shabbat and then where does that leave Baal Teshuva's in that case ? Obviously unable to be counted for a minyan. My point is that these times are different and we have to be careful about how we apply stringencies. Also we need to look at definitions here, because the MB and Shulchan Aruch consider a person who is mechalel Shabbat (b'farhesia)as a person who denies Hashem and is in the same category as one who does avodah zarah and has the din of a non jew and cannot be counted for a minyan. But today, this is not the case, someone who is mechalel Shabbat still turns up to shul to pray and therefore cannot be put into the category of deny Hashem, but rather they dont keep Shabbat because they were not properly educated. Another thought - how do we mekarav people if we take such a hard line and lastly, where do we get the concept of a minyan from ? was it not from the meraglim (spies) and how many the spies were considered yeshar (upright)?