quote:

Originally posted by rob:
So Artscroll's method dates back to 1976.

I don't think I've ever seen Artscroll's transliteration of much anything except perhaps Parsha names. To what works of transliteration is this thread discussing?

Here is a link to the "homepage" of the listing of the various Transliterated Prayer Books published to date: Prayer Books - Hebrew Transliterated with English

A sample JPG of a Transliterated page of davening.

quote:

Is there a full transliteration of Megillas Esther which dates back to 1976? Or are they refering to just a few words here and there within an English translation, where some words defied translation and were transliterated, such as person or place names?

No, in 1976 they did not have the full text transliterated. This is a new project of Artscroll. They're referring to the many Hebrew words that was inserted into the English translation that is in Italics.

Description: [of the Artscroll transliteration siddur. I put in bold to highlite the parts that is relavant to the current discussiion {also, see my comment on the bottom}.]

Can't read Hebrew yet? – It's for you! Want the translation in front of you, phrase by phrase? Want it all, including an ArtScroll commentary? Want a Siddur to introduce your friends to Judaism? Want illuminating essays on every part of the prayers? Want clear instructions as the prayers proceed? Then this siddur is for you! This Siddur has the crisp, clean, creative ArtScroll typeface and layout. The transliteration follows the Orthodox Union's phenomenally successful NCSY formula. The translation is from and the commentary distills the best of ArtScroll's classic Siddur. New introductory essays by Rabbi Benjamin Yudin exemplify his unique blend of scholarship and warmth. This is a Siddur that belongs in every household and synagogue especially those with open arms to people who are sincerely searching for their Jewish roots. With the Seif Edition Siddur in their hands, no guests need ever feel like strangers in an Orthodox shul. See it. Try it. You'll want to have it. And you should! Published in conjunction with The Orthodox Union. Translation and commentary by Rabbi Nosson Scherman; Introductory essays by Rabbi Benjamin Yudin

******

[So that should explain the purpose and goal of the Transliteration format. They want everyone who cannot read Hebrew but wants to feel part of the shul, singing at the Shabbos table etc. So Rav Alter, I think we should leave the scholarly format for those works that are for the "English Elite" for lack of a better term, and the easy format for the "Regular non-Hebrew speaking Layman"]

quote:

Originally posted by Sam-:

Can't read Hebrew yet? – It's for you! Want the translation in front of you, phrase by phrase? Want it all, including an ArtScroll commentary? Want a Siddur to introduce your friends to Judaism? Want illuminating essays on every part of the prayers? Want clear instructions as the prayers proceed? Then this siddur is for you! This Siddur has the crisp, clean, creative ArtScroll typeface and layout. The transliteration follows the Orthodox Union's phenomenally successful NCSY formula. The translation is from and the commentary distills the best of ArtScroll's classic Siddur. New introductory essays by Rabbi Benjamin Yudin exemplify his unique blend of scholarship and warmth. This is a Siddur that belongs in every household and synagogue especially those with open arms to people who are sincerely searching for their Jewish roots. With the Seif Edition Siddur in their hands, no guests need ever feel like strangers in an Orthodox shul. See it. Try it. You'll want to have it. And you should! Published in conjunction with The Orthodox Union. Translation and commentary by Rabbi Nosson Scherman; Introductory essays by Rabbi Benjamin Yudin

******

[So that should explain the purpose and goal of the Transliteration format. They want everyone who cannot read Hebrew but wants to feel part of the shul, singing at the Shabbos table etc. So Rav Alter, I think we should leave the scholarly format for those works that are for the "English Elite" for lack of a better term, and the easy format for the "Regular non-Hebrew speaking Layman"]

The quoted text speaks 90 percent about the translation, which may or may not be a good one.

But I am dismayed by your elitist view of the "natives," whom you as well as these self-appointed arbiters of intelligence relegate to the dustbin.

quote:

Originally posted by Rav Chaim:
I would also point out that Artscroll does have a valid point to transliterate as they do. Igros Moshe (in OC 3:5) rules that one should stick to their original Kabbala of pronunciations and not to go to a different pronunciation that is "thought" to be correct or "more correct."

What you have stated is both acurate and irrelevant to our point. You seem to be confused between transliteration and transcription.

Actually Rav Alter I think you are
underestimating their intelligence, because I have not brought up their intellectual capacity at all, merely mentioned what is easier for people who have come into a 'foreign' language with little or no experience. I make no DISTICTIONS on intellectual capacity but have highlighted a problem with experience. NOT all intelligent people have a capacity for languages. Artscroll is not patronizing people because they think they lack intelligence. We leave that distinction for you to make on your own

quote:

Originally posted by Mark G:
NOT all intelligent people have a capacity for languages.

If you consider the ability to recognize the letter Q as requiring "a capacity for languages," I fear that we cannot conduct a rational discourse. And that makes me sad.

Well that would be me and the whole of Artscroll's staff who are being irrational and I fear makes only one rational person here. Hence maybe you should discuss this with yourself, and then you wont be so sad. Learnt patterns of behaviour are difficult to change and a certain pattern has been ingrained it is difficult to change, as a rational person I expect you to understand this. If you cannot see my point (et al- since you like latin words)and you insist on being obstinate then perhaps the disuscussion needs to end here. Truthfully I cant see much point to slogging the point further anyhow. Perhaps we should just agree to disagree and allow the de facto standard (you know who I mean) to continue as they have (and perhaps one day this means of transliteration could be moot as it would no longer be de fact and become de jure. Ce La Vie

quote:

Originally posted by Mark G:
(et al- since you like latin words) . . . it would no longer be de fact and become de jure. Ce La Vie

Great. All of a sudden I begin to understand your point that not everyone has a capacity for languages. Well done.

ok if we must be a stickler for perfection (which is exactly my point!), C'est la vie. the spelling of 'de facto' was a typo, sorry about that one. Oh but you are right, even though you need to revert to sarcasm in order to say it, I have no flair for languages and is in fact the very reason I spent 2 hours a night for a few weeks going through Hebrew readers for kids. Thusly, without the need to revert to sarcasm your point is made. Kol Tov

All I can say is that Baruch Hashem this discussion is taking place out of Shul.

And Rav Alter I have no clue as to what you mean to say in your comment above to me (and I don't think there is a point to pursue this further).

quote:

layout. The transliteration follows the Orthodox Union's phenomenally successful NCSY formula.
...
The quoted text speaks 90 percent about the translation, which may or may not be a good one.

Dear Rav Alter, since the quote seems to quite clearly speak to their transliteration, what about Sam's quote indicates to you that it is speaking 90% about the translation part?

I think the quote also speaks to the authority for their transliteration formula as coming from the OU-NCSY.

It would be interesting to find out why, if so, the OU for their NCSY program, and whomever are the authors of Rav Alter's authority develepoed their translideration rules differently, and independently, in their respective years.

Perhaps that was the pre-internet world and these groups were not in close connection by email and instant messaging.

quote:

Originally posted by rob:
layout. The transliteration follows the Orthodox Union's phenomenally successful NCSY formula.

Yehalelha zar velo fikha.
...

quote:

The quoted text speaks 90 percent about the translation, which may or may not be a good one.

quote:

Dear Rav Alter, since the quote seems to quite clearly speak to their transliteration, what about Sam's quote indicates to you that it is speaking 90% about the translation part?

I have used asterisks below to indicate why I said that the quote relates mostly to translation

quote:

Can't read Hebrew yet? – It's for you! Want the ***translation*** in front of you, phrase by phrase? Want it all, including an ArtScroll commentary? Want a Siddur to introduce your friends to Judaism? Want illuminating essays on every part of the prayers? Want clear instructions as the prayers proceed? Then this siddur is for you! This Siddur has the crisp, clean, creative ArtScroll typeface and layout. The transliteration follows the Orthodox Union's phenomenally successful NCSY formula. The ***translation** is from and the commentary distills the best of ArtScroll's classic Siddur. New introductory essays by Rabbi Benjamin Yudin exemplify his unique blend of scholarship and warmth. This is a Siddur that belongs in every household and synagogue especially those with open arms to people who are sincerely searching for their Jewish roots. With the Seif Edition Siddur in their hands, no guests need ever feel like strangers in an Orthodox shul. See it. Try it. You'll want to have it. And you should! Published in conjunction with The Orthodox Union. ***Translation*** and commentary . . .

Quote "What you have stated is both acurate and irrelevant to our point. You seem to be confused between transliteration and transcription."

On the contrary. If your going to transliterate in a language in a way people do not speak, then its really qrazy. What is the purpose of it? Why would anyone in their right mind would want to write liqe that?

quote:

Originally posted by Rav Chaim:

On the contrary. If your going to transliterate in a language in a way people do not speak, then its really qrazy. What is the purpose of it? Why would anyone in their right mind would want to write liqe that?

Because transliteration by definition makes it possible for someone who, say, cannot read Hebrew, to know what letter in Hebrew is being represented by the Latin alphabet. You say that you don't care? Well I do. It's connected with the goal of understanding.

Here's what I mean. With proper transliteration, one can see that "kol haneshama" is distinct from "az beqol." Or "hakol yodukha" is not the same as "haqol qol Ya`aqov."

You still seem to be confused between transliteration and transcription. (I refrain from commenting on your punctuation.)

In the phrase:

"Yehalelha zar velo fikha."

I cannot distinguish which h has the h sound and which one has the ch sound.

I assume that the trailing a's are komatz?

Could someone please recode the above transliteration into the OU-NCSY standard? 8-)

quote:

quote:
Dear Rav Alter, since the quote seems to quite clearly speak to their transliteration, what about Sam's quote indicates to you that it is speaking 90% about the translation part?


I have used asterisks below to indicate why I said that the quote relates mostly to translation

quote:
Can't read Hebrew yet? – It's for you! Want the ***translation*** in front of you, phrase by phrase? Want it all, including an ArtScroll

I agree that the paragraph from Artscroll speaks about both transliteration and translation.

I think that the overemphasis your ***'s place upon the translation is a misunderstanding of their relative priorities to which you attribute I think 90% to their translation, and only 10% to their transliteration.

In the usual Artscroll (or Birnbaum) translated works there is a page by page translation on opposite pages. Surely there are occasional words which defy translation {stam, mamash, etc, words seem to defy precise translation} and which if transliterated can give a perso unfamiliar with the word some hint as to the phonetics behind how it should sound.

It makes perfect sense to me to use phonetic encodings to an English audience which are actually found in English words, and to rely upon the common phonetics, rather than the minority exceptions.... Iraq / Iraqi is an exception to the Q rule, and thus I think using a K makes more sense.

For the life of me I have not been able to discern however whether "cherub" when written in a work of translation is refering to the English word with the CH to be pronounced like the game of chess or the Yiddish chachka, or whether it is a transliteration to be pronounced like chas-v-shalom or chanuka.

Standard street signs here in Israel use the professional (archaic) transliteration and lead to no end of confusion.
Surprisingly, they are not consistent and write Kilo(gram) and Kilometer with a "kof"(Qof), not a "kaf" as would match a "k" in that system. Or maybe they think that it is qilogram and qilometer, and we have it all wrong.

Quote "Because transliteration by definition makes it poossible for someone who, say, cannot read Hebrew, to know what letter in Hebrew is being represented by the Latin alphabet. You say that you don't care? Well I do. "

I've kind of noticed that you qare. The whole qestion is why should someone qare. Why should anyone, whether he knows Hebrew or not, should qare which Hebrew letter is represented by the Latin alphabet. (Or how to spell Chazer in pig Latin.) If that is not the way they're going to pronounce it anyhow, so why should they care whether theoretically a Kuf would be represented by a "Q". He wants to know how he should pronounce the letter. Similarly, someone writing a Hebrew word, let say in this forum, he should write it the way it's sound in order that it should be more recognizable, not how someone in a different part of the world would pronounce them.

Succinctly put Rav Chaim !

Post script to this discussion on transliteration: I have often found that those using transliterated siddurim often end up having as much difficulty with this type of siddur than with a standard hebrew edition. This is not because they lack intelligence before I get accused of that again, but because they are generally unfamiliar with the service and thusly even with transliteration get lost. Nothing beats a teacher, a bit of patience, a bit of perserverance, and learn Lashon Hakodesh (and of course lot of practice in a SHUL)