I agree with you that it's not ideal to do Mitzvahs for what other people might think of you (even though it's a good catalyst to start at if you're not holding by doing it wholey for Hashem). You agree with me that someone can feel good about his good deeds. I'm just saying how I feel is an honest gage for being on a right track. For example, take baseball (that American sport simular to cricket). If someone is batting .350, he's an "All Star" player. Even though such an average won't be close to make you pass in school, or to be considered more than a "quack" if you're a doctor, but for a hitter it's excelent. Why? because everybody else is battins .270. So to gage oneself where you are holding, would be comparing yourself to others in your "league"
Rav Chaim Voloziner (in Ruach Chaim in beginning of Chapter 4) says a humble person is someone who is great, but still is humble. If he isn't great, then it's not being humble, it's being honest. So this was my question (this area of torah, mussar, is not my forte, so I can't be considered an expert in it, so I came to ask the community for help in understanding it,so I can keep it easier) If the whole point of being humble is when in reality you're great, Like Rabbi Volozaner said, then what is the use of fooling yourself thinking you're not great? And if you are honest, how can you fool yourself? Or am I missing the real definition of being humble?

I actualy saw in the beggining of the 4th Perek of Ruach Chaim that says that to be humble is to think you are less than others, even if you are apparently better than them, since they could have bigger tests and are doing better given their situation. Even if one acts with humility, but doesn't believe it's true is Lacking in Humility according to Rav Chaim Volozener.

I stilll have the question I had before in my first post on the subject, that mathimaticly it's hard to concieve that everybody has circumstances which makes it much harder for them,even though it's not apparent, that they are realy much ahead of you, even though it seems they are much behind. My Chavrush, who is a very Chushuva Rosh Kollel, when I asked him, he admitted he didn't understand it very weel either. The most he said, if you don't convince yourself, then you are proned to act in a haughty way at times, even if you trained yourself in general to act humble

Real anovo means that one in relation to the enormous task given, doesn't feel accomplished. Not to say, he doesn't realize accomplishment. He definitely is aware of his good deeds. However, his outlook is on his task and ,being aware of the greatness of his mission ,he feels humble. Thoughts of his greatness have no room to occupy his mind. His outlook on others is not necessarily true as R Chaim points out, many people are definitely inferior to him. This thought ,however doesn't enter his mind .He is too absorbed in his task and his ego has no time to act within him

quote:

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Originally posted by yaakov finkelstein:
Real anovo means that one in relation to the enormous task given, doesn't feel accomplished.

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This is exactly what Sichas Mussar says in his first piece on Yom Hadin

I'd like to mention a thought regarding anovo that I once had and (not confirmed) was told that R' Gedaliya Schorr ZT"L said the same vort. The two greatest most humble men in the Tora are Avrohom Avinu and Moshe Rabeinu. We know Avrohom Avinu stated Anochi Ofor Ve'aifer ,meaning I'm dust and ashes and Moshe Rabeinu stated Ve'nachnu mo, what are we. We know that Moshe Rabeinu's level of humbleness was greater than Avrohom's .Avrohom stated I'm dust and ashes,both matters of substance whereas Moshe statd what are we ,meaning not even a substance. I was thinking how comes Moshe was a greater onov than Avrohom? I think the answer lies in the beginning of Parshas Va'aira .The Possuk says that HKB"H revealed Himself to the Avos by His name Sha-d-a-i, meaning the one who sat the bounderies to the world whereas to Moshe He revealed Himself Beshem Yud Kay. which means "mehave ais Hametzius"- bringing things into being. Avrohom's hasogo was a relevation of HKBH with existing matters. He therefore internalized that he's completely formed by HKBH.Moshe's hasogo was that there is nothing without HKBH doing.He therefore realized that he's nothing as well. If this idea is true ,than the concept of real humbleness is how much we feel being a creature of HKBH
bebirca Gmar Chasima Tova

I am happy to see that you are getting something out of the forums. You have some really good posts. On this matter I would agree that the different names of Hashem may seem to be a proof but it is hard for me to hear the Avraham was lacking in the concept of "yesh'mayen" (something from nothing).

I think the point of the matter, not that Avraham couldn't understand that hashem didn't create the world out of nothing, but rather, when dealing with humans, that there needed to have in the man some kind of self nobility that Hashem would expand on (Im pasoch Kmachat HAShem Yiptach Kpesach Hulam), thus he felt he must of started with a Masihu of self worth, but Moshe felt that he never had any self worth, and what Hashem wanted from him was all his doing

it is interesting reading on the Noach story. for was he rightous only in his genration or not? and does that mean we could measure ourselves to the world around us? well the Rambam says there are three traits. the Rasha the Benoni (the middle ground) and there is the Tzidik (rightous).

it was taught that there was none greater then Rabbah and yet he called himself a Benoni. this is one who never ceased studying so much that the angel of Death could not over power him. nu so if such a great Talmid Chochom would call himself a Benino raises the question: how can i consider myself a Benoni never mind a Tzidik?
(Tanya)

as much it is taught by the BeShT (Rabbi Israel Ben Elizar) "What makes you superior to a worm? The worm serves the Creator with all its mind and strength! Man, too, is a worm and maggot, as it is written 'I am a worm and no man.' (Tehillim 22:7) If G-d had not given you intelligence you would not be able to worship Him but like a worm. Thus you are no better than a worm, and certainly no better then other people. Bear in mind that you, the worm and all other small creature are considered as equals in the world. for all were created and have but the ability given to them by the blessed Creator."
(Tzava'at Harivash 12)

If one keeps this in mind for they should not even began to think they are rightous until they day they die if even then.

RE: Rabbi Mitterhoff's and Rav Chaim's remarks.
Ofcourse Avrohom Avinu knew Hashem created Yesh Me'aiyn ,but ,as Rashi says in beginning of Parshas Va'aira : Lo nodaati lahem .He had no "Hargosho be'chush" on it.(What actually made me think of this thought, was the Possuk at the end of Parshas Sh'mos. Moshe Rabeinu complained to Hashem "why did You send me". Le'fi pshuto ,he felt bad because his mission failed (I think the Sif'sai Chachomim brings this down as well).I was bothered since Moshe Rabeinu was Onov Mikol Odom,he shouldn't been bothered by this. But this was before Hashem revealed Himself to him as "Ani Hashem".Only then he acquiered this highest level of anivus.

It's interesting how many meanings the word "onov" - "humble" - conveys, depending on how it is used, and it is not even an homonym. Moses is humble; Avraham is humble, but not as humble as Moses; Yitzchak is humble both before God and before human beings: they tell him to leave the wells that his servants had dug, and he picks up and leaves, and finds another place to dig wells. Yet we read only that Moshe Rabeinu was Onov Mikol Odom, and not Yitzchak Avinu. And Moshe was not humble at all with Yisraelites, or Egyptians, or even with Par'oh.

Would it be correct to say then that Korach's sin was that not that he attempted to undermine Moshe Rabeinu's status in the newborn Israelite society, but that he did not want to accept the need to distinguish behavior to humans from behavior to G-d? That he attempted to take over from Moshe Hashem's Revelation to him? Kind of to dictate to G-d to whom G-d should be talking?

Would then it be correct to say that a man who is "onov" understands his place in the universe? Understands that it is impossible NOT to be humble before God, but one should not be humble with other humans, no matter what their social status is? That one should be respectful of all other people, but not accept humiliation from them?

Does this also mean that Hashem wants us to live in egalitarian democratic societies, ruled by the Law and guided by Cohanim? Or guided by prophets? Or were prophets intended to be like crutches for the society, used by Hashem to fix a societal problem?

Thank you all in advance for answers.

The question of whether or not be humiliated or stand up for one self (in whether there is an obligation to stand up for yourself, but in most situations there is no obligation to be humilified, but it's a great character trait) is dependent if there is a need in the Law to stand up to it or not.

If someone independently insults you,and it's only involves your honor, to be an onov (or a Naalov) you shouldn't answer back, but if it's involved to stand up for the Torah or for the Jews or similar objectives, then one must stand up for what is right and needed, for keeping quiet would cause damage.

In other words, you speak out if it's not about yourself, just the principle behind it.

I was not priviledged to be raised in a Torah home. Only in the past six years (45yrs old) have I begun to study and try to apply the Mitzvot to my life and world. The shul where I daven is a mixture in levels of observance. At times it is difficult to not be impressed with one's self-achievment or devotion. It is almost impossible for such not to draw attention, and that reinforces the feeling of some sort of superiority. Yet I do believe that no matter my acheivent, that there are others who if placed in my circumstances, would not have done better. In comparing myself to others I find a barrier to my own growth. It is a trap of this competitive world we exist in. While I can not quote from our Seforim, I can only say that it is satisfying to understand that I am at a "higher" level than I was only a few years ago, and as large a burden to know that there may be others looking to me as some sort example. It chills me to think that anyone could consider me to be "more righteous" than they, and chose to emulate my behavior in some way.