GY Moderator
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Welcome to The Global Yeshiva.
These are important questions that you ask, particularly nowadays when there is much more mixing of "the tribes" as it were. (BTW, I think the ancient tribes of Israel did intermarry).
I think there is a justification for keeping a certain separation between different groups. Unfortunately it seems that there are those of a like mind but only because they are in fact discriminatory in their nature, as witness the way certain groups have been treated in Israel.
When reading articles about the whole "Shidduch" issue, what becomes clear is that there are aspects of suitability of a marriage partner that override one's wish to have everyone integrated.
You mention Sefardim and Ashkenazim. Now I happen to think that for many girls (it affects the women more than the men) it would be better if they married their own kind, as it were. The culture gap is sometimes quite wide to leap over. I am Ashkenazi and my daughter is, Baruch Hashem, happily married to an Israeli Sefardi. But on two counts it has been difficult for her. Firstly, going to live in a foreign country (Israel) and secondly marrying into a (wonderful) family that has a whole different outlook on life and way of doing things.
Jews are very strong on Minhag, custom, and one would not want to see them diluted in the interests of integration. This is, of course, provided that each group respects the others.
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| Posts: 797 | Location: London, England | Registered: June 10, 2005 |  |
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quote: (BTW, I think the ancient tribes of Israel did intermarry).
By the daughters of Tzelofchad being required to marry within their tribe, I think we can be certain that this was the exception and not the rule. There is also something about the tribe of Binyamin, a time when they needed to marry women from other tribes. And a question... by the names of the 12 Miraglim there is one "spy" named Yigal ben Yoseif. Has anyone ever seen any indication whether this man's father was named for Yoseif ben Yaakov? We know he wasn't in the tribes of Yoseif's sons, so his father could not have been, but perhaps someone in his mother's line was? |
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| Posts: 897 | Location: USA | Registered: May 30, 2004 | |
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ygalg,
If I understand you question correctly, you were asking an enthic issues rather than a minhag issue. Being that you have not been an observant Jew, minhagim are really not an issue. You should be able to adapt to any minhagim you choose unless a posek tells you to go with a specific minhag (your grandfather's, for example). So I gathered that your question was more about ethno/racial mixing rather than minhagim. Torah talks of nations not races. Within Israel there are tribes not races and the various tribes and enclaves have their own minhagim. If you have not been following any minhagim at all, there is no reason why you should be restricted in your shidduch because you are going to be learning some minhag anyway. As long as she is a good Jew and if she is already observant, you might have to learn her minhagim. Other social issues about background etc are all individual. There are stereotypes and assumptions made about certain ethnic groups that are not necessarily true. So each case must be taken on an individual basis.
However, your parents' objection should be taken into consideration. You need to understand why they object. If it's purely ethno/racial, in that they want grandchildren who look like them, then they are probably out of luck. However, if their objection is a halachic one, then you need to consider it. I can't think of a halachic reason why one good Jew may not marry another good Jew. Ethiopians, converts etc are all Jews. Moshe HaRabienu married a convert from Midian...probably equivalent to an Ethiopian today. If it was good enough for him, it should be good enough for you.
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| Posts: 901 | Location: Olam Haze | Registered: October 20, 2005 | |
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I believe that we Ashkenazim are very inbred and come from a small DNA base. I once heard that we're all descendants of about 70 families who lived in Italy after the churban. (I'm not sure if it's true but it could be). Inbreeding leads to hereditary diseases such as Tay Sachs. The more inbred a family the worse. The few hundred Samaritans that still exist are rife with genetic diseases. The Royal families of Europe are all inbred. Queen Victoria and the Tzar of Russia passed on hemophilia to some of their children. It is said that we Ashkenazim have a higher incidence of breast cancer also. Chassidic families, particularly Rebbishe families often marry cousins which can lead to disastrous results. With this in mind I think our marrying Sephardim and Edot Hamizrach Jews is a good idea genetically. Ditto geirim.
In addition, with the shidduch crisis that we are experiencing today we shouldn't be ruling out other Jews.
SamK
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| Posts: 49 | Location: Queens, NY | Registered: August 25, 2005 | |
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quote: Originally posted by MosheYisraeli:
ygalg,
If I understand you question correctly, you were asking an enthic issues rather than a minhag issue. Being that you have not been an observant Jew, minhagim are really not an issue. You should be able to adapt to any minhagim you choose unless a posek tells you to go with a specific minhag (your grandfather's, for example). So I gathered that your question was more about ethno/racial mixing rather than minhagim. Torah talks of nations not races. Within Israel there are tribes not races and the various tribes and enclaves have their own minhagim. If you have not been following any minhagim at all, there is no reason why you should be restricted in your shidduch because you are going to be learning some minhag anyway. As long as she is a good Jew and if she is already observant, you might have to learn her minhagim. Other social issues about background etc are all individual. There are stereotypes and assumptions made about certain ethnic groups that are not necessarily true. So each case must be taken on an individual basis.
However, your parents' objection should be taken into consideration. You need to understand why they object. If it's purely ethno/racial, in that they want grandchildren who look like them, then they are probably out of luck. However, if their objection is a halachic one, then you need to consider it. I can't think of a halachic reason why one good Jew may not marry another good Jew. Ethiopians, converts etc are all Jews. Moshe HaRabienu married a convert from Midian...probably equivalent to an Ethiopian today. If it was good enough for him, it should be good enough for you.
Yes, I was referring to an ethnic issues and very please to received your reply it is very enlightening and very positive thank you very much. I am not seeing anyone (yet) I am myself divorce + daughter I simply put my self in this position hypothetically what if I marry a Jewess and happen to be she is of Ethiopia I ask my mom the possibility she already got mad. (She unfortunately racial) well raising in environment as in Ukraine you develop sort of bad habits. I wish she looked at things as I do. ygalg |
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| Posts: 5 | Location: israel | Registered: November 14, 2005 | |
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quote: I don't care if they are green.
Why is it that all threads seem to go back to those chickens  |
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| Posts: 897 | Location: USA | Registered: May 30, 2004 | |
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B"H
I have heard that some Ethiopians living in Israel have gone through an Orthodox conversion while here, in Israel. Those who refused to do so say that they find it offensive, even a personal affront, to convert when they believe that they are already bona fide Jews. Almost all agree that the Ethiopians in their native Ethiopia were mostly void of any oral law (Mishnah, Talmud, etc.). They only had the Pentateuch (Torah) which had been translated for them into Ge'ez.
As a people, they are benign, and very friendly. There is no rowdy conduct to be found amongst them. Personally speaking, I would have no qualms about marrying an Ethiopian woman, although I was married to a Yemenite. Yet, before I 'd go through with a marriage, I would first ask to see a "teudas giyur." Better to be certain, than sorry.
David
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| Posts: 1031 | Location: Israel | Registered: December 05, 2005 | |
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quote: Originally posted by Yocheved Broscova-Guerra:
I completely agree, on all accounts. I will say that if I were raised as an Ethiopian Jew all my life, and someone then came (even a Rabbi) and told me I needed to "convert", I would be offended, too. How can you NOT BE what you are? But I would still go through a "conversion" to avoid being separated from community. Hard enough being part of only 1% of the world's population. How would you like to be ostracized from that as well?!
Yocheved, Here, your acute discernment is coming out!  Yishar Koach! David |
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| Posts: 1031 | Location: Israel | Registered: December 05, 2005 | |
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