I always had this little what atitude is needed for humbleness ? I understand the atitude for the other middos, not that I'm so good at tehm, but atleast I understand them. Anger can cause people to do things they would later regret. It's a distructive Mida.
I understand how Gaava to a point can affect you negitively, by making all your moves based on how it boosts your image. But what bothers me what is wrong with the regular knowing where you stand. If you have done good in your life, to take pride in it. Not belittleing others, chas v'sholom, but why the "ich bin a gurnish" (i'm a nothing) atitude.
The reason of: compared to Hashem you're nobody, I don't grasp so well. I'm not claiming that I'm better then Hashem, but just better than some of my fellow men. The reason: because all your talents are from Hashem, also doesn't hold true to me. On the contrary, since my talents take free will, so the very reason that I used my free will to do the good and put in the efferts that others don't put in, it's my doing, and I should be able to take credit for them. If you would say you neede Hashem's help to overcome the Yetzer Hara, thus it's not completly my doing, that also is not a good reason, since whatever portion is my own doing, if not, everybody would be a tzadik, I should take pride in it, since my friends are not doing the same.
If you'll say, well maybe others have more dificult situations and thus he is held less responsable than you, never judge anybody until you get to their shoes. This also bothers me. Maybe they are not. Why should I need to have to not have pride because of this doubt. Maybe don't judge and belittle him, but to feel better them him, why not?
If anyone can clear this matter with me I'll be very happy.

I beleive that comparing oneself to others is not a good barometer by which to measure one's worth. If one lived in a city of murderers should he consider himself a righteous person,just because he hasn't killed anyone?

However the accurate way to measure ones self worth is to look at how he has lived up to HIS own potential. Has he learned as much as he was capable of? Has he treated his fellow man as well as he should? Has he done as much chesed works as he should have. Has his davening always been as good as it should have. Can anyone answer in the affirmative to all these questions.? If one stops to think and take stock of all this, it should greatly reduce one's feelings of haughtiness.

The concept of comparing to yourself rather than to those around you can be dependent on the 2 explanations of Rashi in the begining of parshas Noach. The explanation that it was a embarassment to him that only in his generation he was a tzadik but if he was in Avraham's generation he would be a nobody, seems to agree with your point. Even though he was better than other people, he himself was lacking.
But to the the other explanation, that it was to his praise, that even amoung his generation he was a tzadik, and of course if he would be in Avraham's generation he would of been even better. This would seem to say that we judge people on a curve of the people they're surrounded with.
We see this concept even by a local situation, like by Lot and the Tzarfas woman with Eliyahu, They both said they where judged as a tzadik as long as they were amoung the Reshayim but not in the midst of a Tzadik. So,yes, in a way you are a better person being surrounded by murderers and other low lives.
I once had an argument with a big Talmud Chachumim about the level of accountability of Non-Orthodox jews for not becoming orthodox. He held, from his own logic, that they'll be highly accountable, since they should take seriosly to find out the meaning of life. Ignoring it is considered be negligible, and therefore accountable. I claimed, that even though I follow his logic, but in YD 266-12 The Tur says that someone who's both parents are mumarim (non believers) they are consider most probable to also be mumarim (see Shach #16). If the average child, in such a case, is expected not to be Orthodox, how can there be a high accountability on him?
I think that the average of what is expected of somebody in any certain circumstance. If someone overachieve this expectation, isn't he praiseworthy. This is why I have the greatest respect for Balai T'shuva, for overcoming all their obstacles and going against all odds (like the Tur said) and became Orthodox. I think this should be a source of pride to them.
Of course, everybody could be better, but they could also be alot worse. Therefore, being above the average is showing you achieved more than expected, thus is praiseworthy. When we look at other people, we look at great people praising them for what they accomplished, even though they could of been better, but we need to look up to them, and praise them for what they did. Why should we treat ourselves differently if the truth is that his actions are basicaly praiseworthy.
I'm not saying someone should rest on their laurales, but should at least feel they are heading in the right direction. This would inspire them to go higher.

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I Don't see how you come to your conclusion based on the second Pshat about Noach. The Torah according to that Pshat is not saying that he was considered a Tzaddik BECAUSE he was better than everybody else. The Torah is saying he remained a tzaddik DESPITE the fact he was surrounded with reshaim. He was a tzaddik on his own merit,not just relative to others.

Secondly the Gemmorah in Sanhedrin 37. states it is better to be the tail of a lion then the head of a fox. Meaning it is better to be the least choshuv person in a group of great people ,than the best in a group of lesser people. However based on what you are saying ,one would be better off being the head of a fox, because he will be judged relative to his peers,and will be considered a greater tzaddik if he stays there.

It is better for man to admit that he is a sinner then it is for a man to admit that he is righteous. It states in the Gemorah that Hashem says " I dwell with the sinners whom admit that they are sinners , But as for the righteous whom call themselves righteous there is no room in this world for you and I."

On Rabbi kacev's questions, my conclusion is based on the end of Rashi which makes a Kal V'chomar if he would live in the days of Avraham he would of been a bigger Tzadik. If the Rashi is teaching us that he was a Tzadik despite his generation, then the point has nothing to do with him being a bigger Tzadik with Avraham, thus the point of Rashi would seem to be he was a Tzadik Gamor even though in reality he was a lesser Tzadik than Avraham (as to everybody Rashi explained that Noach needed help from Hashem to walk in his ways which Avraham never needed) since he would have been greater if he was in a better surrounding .
The gemarah in Sanhedrin you bring down is also no proof, since it's talking about the Sanhedrin that were all in one location (it just depended which row to sit in). It is also not refering to tzidkos but in Chashivos in learning. The moral to learn from it that it is better to be the lowest Rebbe of a Bais Medresh than being the highest Rebbe in the HS level. The same to be the lowest HS rebbi and the lowest on the rung in the Yeshiva, than being the highest Rebbe in the elementary school level, even though you'll be treated there as their "Rosh Yeshiva"
To Abrohom, if possible, could you write the place of that gemorah, since I cannot recall it.
There is a simular Gemorah in the first perek of Sotah (I don't have my gemarahs on me which daf it is) that says on someone that is haughty that Hashem can't live with them.
But my is what is wrong with feeling that you are righteous? Even if you say that it's no good, there must be a reason for it. I just want to know the reason.

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It is said that a great Tzadik never believes he is good enough, Despite what how people might praise his deeds. If we feel that we are righteous perhaps it will cause us to sin or perhaps it will cause us to deny our sin. Pride is the way of Esau , Humilty is the way of Yaakov, The difference in a nutshell is that Esau rewards himself with trophies and medallions and tickertape parades ,gifts and endorsements while Yaakov simply moves on to the next Mitzvah without expectation of reward for his deeds, knowing that his servitude to Hashem is obligatory once he has used his freewill to come to this decision. It is Hashem who will reward us in the end regardless of whether we want to be rewarded or not . We are His children and He will give us what we are deserving. In regards to Avraham it is said that He stood alone on the other side of the river, He was the only one of his generation to recognize G-d and his desiples that followed him, It is for naught that we compare Tzadiks to other generations simply because it is written that Hashem has said that " All of Israel will be Tzadiks from the least to the greatest" In the time of Moshiach which is drawing near we will all be prophets again . And in regards to our past it is said that " It will be as if it were a dream " So I see no reason why we should compare one Tzadik of a certain generation to another Tzadik from another generation, surley each would say of the other that "He is greater then I". Like I said it is said that a true Tzadik never feels he is good enough.

On what you wrote that Tzadikim never think that there good enough. I never said thet do. In my 2nd post I wrote that they shouldn't rest on their laurales, but it doesn't mean they can't be proud of their progress.
On what you wrote that Yaakov doesn't take any credit for mitzvos that tghey do, but just move on to the next mitzvah since he understand his service is obligatory. This does have a M'kor (source). In Avos 2-8 R' Yochanan ben Zakai says that one that learns alot of Torah shouldn't "Machzik Tovah" (give gratitude) to himself, because for this is what he was created for. R' Yona explains like you, that he compares it to someone who's in debt and pays it off, he's not so grwat for paying a debt.
Rashi, however, learns that since the world was created for torah learning, someone shouldn't learn because he's doing something extra for gratitude , but for the upkeep of the world. (In my humble opinion,in the vein of the Nefesh Hachaim that says that if there was one moment where their is no torah learning, the world would turn back into nothingness, what Rashi is saying that one should have the attitude that this is not an extra, but this is the actual upkeep of the whole being of the world)
But even to R' Yonah you can make a difference between having Hashem in debt to you for learning, which is wrong, that Adaraba (just the oppisite), you're just paying your debt to Him. But in comparision to others that don't take their obligation a serious, why shouldn't you feel as better.
What you say we shouldn't compare, by Avrahom, Tzadikim to each other. I didn't. The Torah does. It's spelled out in Rashi in the begining of Parshas Noach. You can look it up.

The gemarah in Sotah that I brought in last post is in 5A

The following Gemaras come to mind in which Tzadikim praise their own actions:
Berochos 4A: Dovid tells Hashem "Am I not a pious person?
Suka 53A: By the Simcha Bais Hashoava, The TZadikim said " praised is our youth that (thrue ovoiding sin then) did not embarassed our old age

Another concept that seems to be at the heart of Judaism is the medrish (brought in the introduction of the Shmatsa) That the reason why Hashem, who created the world to do good for his creations, didn't just send them to Gan Eden (heaven), was in order that they shouldn't eat "embarassed bread" (a handout) (nahama dichasifa) so we are put into this world to earn our reward, so we'll enjoy it so much more. If it's true that the attitude is that everything we must do with the attitude that we're not doing anything great, it just our job of being under Hashem's rule, and the reward is jsut what Hashem gives us from his kindness, if so you're back to the original problem that you are getting a handout for your reward.

Once again in regard to that Rashi, all he seems to be saying is that Noach was a tzaddik despite the people around him. He was not saying he was considered a Tzaddik compared to everyone else. The kal vechomr is that certainly Noach would have been an even better Tzaddik if he would have lived among Tzaddikim like Avrohom and been influenced from them.

In regard to your premise that if a person is doing better than average he is doing what is expected of them, if Rav Moshe or Rav Schach, for example had simply been a bit better than the average would it have been considered in Shomayim that they had accomplished what was expected of them?
So the real yardstick is each person's potential, not how he compares to others.

I feel that Rashi is trying to say that Noach was judged on a curve, even though it was possible to be greater, (why couldn't he push more to be better?), but since it was harder because of his situation, we'll consider him a complete tzadik because of the generation.
This is the meaning of the Kal V'chomar,that since according to his efforts in this generation, he would be greater in a different generation, therfore we must consider him as great as he would be in the better generation.

This would fit well what is the argument in the 2 shitos. That both held he could of been better, the question is, do you put him on a curve. but if you say that he reached his potential, so everybody should agree he was great, and there is no embarrassment. If he didn't reach it, to everyone it should be am embarrassment. If they are arguing wether or not he reached his potential, so even in his generation he shouldn't be anything, since he didn't reach his potential

About the Gedolim, if they didn't reach their potential (which we don't have any proof that they did reach their potential) and they would be regular Buki B'shas Uposkim (you must remember that a good amount of their peers that came with their backrounds where not too bad either (think of all the Alter Mireres that were all, for the most part, were gedolei torah. The other Yeshivos, for the most part, didn't survive the war, hence we don't know about them) Do you think they still would be nobodies that would be burned in gehennem forever because they didn't reach their potential? If it came out that a Godol that you look up to was Kalfei Shmaiya Galya didn't reach his utmost potential, would you veiw him now as someone that didn't do his Tafkid. Maybe he didn't do his complete tafkid, but he's definitely praisworthy and had a fulfilled life.

Of course we'll have to give a din V'chesbon on all that we don't reach our potential, and it's no excuse being "good enough" . I'm just saying that being more than average is a reason to celebrate. That atleast you came so far and you could be a lot worse according to the law of averages.

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I understand what you are trying to say, but I don't see how you can see all that in the words of Rashi. He does not seem to make any implications of the kind you are suggesting

Rashi doesn't say at all what the praise is. Therefore I think the praise is implicated in the kol Shechain that he writes afterward, since the Kal V'chomar seems to be otherwise out of place and nothing to do with Rashi's point. Since the Kal V'chomar is dealing with how in his generation he wasn't as good as he would of been in another generation. This fits into my point. But if you say that he's so great even in such a bad generation, then what is the connection to the Kal V'chomar? What does it have to do with the whole thrust of Rashi, since we didn't mention anything to do with him being less in his generation

The kal vachomer is simple-if Noach was a tzaddik despite his generation--how much bigger a tzaddik would he have been in a better generation.

Your response to my comment about the Gedolim was taking my example to the extreme. I am speaking about a person who used up very little of his potential. Imagine someone who had the ability of the Vilna goan, but used very little of his gifts. However with the little he used he was still able to be way above the average. Is such a person praiseworhty?

I didn't mean to only put in the variables of peers, but as many variables as possible. If someone is a Goan, which is quite obvious who they are, and there is no problem to identify them, of coarse they shouldn't be judged to be better than the average person. I'm talking about the average person with average ability that takes himself to another level amoung his peers that are not apparently les them him in ability. The same with geniuses amoung their peers of geniuses, if they rise above the "average" genius

people cannot be sure of what their potentials are and even less what the potential of their peers are. So he cannot "compare " himself to his peers, for he cannot really know if they are comparable. It could be like comparing apples to oranges.

Of course, someone can never be sure what's with the next person. But I can imagine that, according to the law of averages, everybody cannot have more problems than you have. In other words, if you relize that there is no born trait that you have that is greater than other people (you weren't born with the best mind or having a studious nature) and you had to work on these things and even so, you excell and you don't see the others around you putting in the effort, I can't imagine that most of them are not basically having around your own abilities, and my efforts are the thing that differentiates ourselves.

It seems to me that, a person who does Mitzvos and studies Torah and feels better than the average person, is doing both for the wrong reasons. He is worried about other people and not about serving Hashem. For example: if you get an amateur sprinter to compete against a professional one, obviously the professional one will win. But the professional guy is serious he won't feel better than than the amateur, because perhaps the worth of the amateur is much bigger. This is specially true in the eyes of Hashem because of the effort he put in. Seeing oneself as better than others may be viewed as arrogance, or the inability to look into the heart of who is trying or doing sometimes a greater effort than oneself and not seeing G-d in his creations. It is, in your language, putting Gevurah above Chesed. What Hashem is interested in, at the end of the day, is in the purpose and not in the final product. What He wants from us to lift up the Holy sparks and not to despise them.

Firstly, i would like to say "Hi" to you , Richard, since we didn't "speak" in a long time. In the Yeshiva, we are always happy for your input

To a point, you are right that what is the finished product is not always the measurement of ones greatness. The talmud says (Berochos 5B) It doesn't matter if one does alot or a little, as long as he does it for the sake of heaven. I'm not trying to compare people with different backgrounds and different I.Q.s. I'm talking about people that are simular to you and should be as good as you or better, but for their lack of effort,or your surge of effort, they are not.

In your example of the sprinters, if the amateur is naturaly less athletic or slower than the pro, he has nothing to be ashamed of. But if the reason why he's not a pro because he doesn't want the work ethic (hey, why train for hours on end if you can spend it in the pub?) Isn't the pro that was dedicated to his sport better than the lazy lump that doesn't want to give the effort needed to excell in his sport.

I'm not talking about gloating or saying nasty cooments to those that are less than you. I'm talking more of an internal thing. If you honestly feel that you are way better than the average person around you, how do you supposed to feel regular like everyone else?

Now I'm someone who is brutely honest, even with myself. I can beat myself on mistakes that happen decades ago, and excuses don't help, since I don't honestly buy them (Isometimes envy those that fell comfertable with their excuses, and get their consciense off their back). Now , using as a gage the average people around me, you can logicly conclude that your better. So how can you be humble if that seems to be the truth?
Even in your situation, Richard, coming from a secular background, how many people show such interest in Judaism? You're probably one in a thousand (or something like that). Don't you think that going against odds like that are deserving of praise and is an accomplishment to be proud of?

Hi Rav,
How have you been doing?
Talking strictly about myself, I don't feel better than other secular Jews who haven't walked the same walk as myself, I definitely feel well about myself but who am I to compare myself to other people?
It may be a personality thing, but I do things in order to accomplish them for myself and the good feelings they bring. It feels good to do Mitzvos and to progress in Torah, I really don't care too much about the people around me when it comes to progress or accomplishments. I hope that my my well being etc.. may influence them to follow the same path, but I'd never compare myself to them, they'll probably come to the same conclusion some day.
If you will, I only answer to Hashem, and the question of other people's progress is in between them and Hashem.
As a wise saying sais: You can take a horse to the river but you can't make him drink. In our case we drink and satiate our thirst and are hopefully blessed in doing so. This is in my view is what is really important.
By the way, I wish you a great Shabbos.