Thought I'd share this neat experience: When the girls were very young (they are 10 and 11 now) I read a midrash that said if you must strike a child, do so with a shoelace. I felt this was what G-d wanted for my children and that corporal discipline was an unneessary tool in their case. So I committed to this. One day, about a month ago, my little girl, Yemina was in a "funk". She gets really moody sometimes and was really barking at her older sister, Zipporah, who is far more easy going. I had had about all I could take with her yelling at her sister and I went to my bedroom. A few minutes later, Z came in and was crying about something Yemina had said to her which was really ugly and demeaning and not worth reporting. I told her to send in her sister.
A few minutes went by and I knew my blood was boiling. I love a peaceful, quiet home, and Yemina was systematically dismanteling it. Then I prayed, and I decided not to do all the typical, "Straighten up or you will find yourself grounded, or eating by yourself, and so on. I abandoned all of that and asked G-d to give me wisdom. A minute later she appeared, sulking, arms crossed, her beautiful features twisted into a sour scowl. I didn't say anything because wisdom hadn't come yet. I didn't know what to say without my arsenal of tricks. So it became quiet and frankly awkward and uncomfortable. Then, I said (very gently), "Yemina, I think you might be out of balance. Your yetzer ha-ra has been running unchecked lately." I looked at her, she began to rock but clearly had nothing to say to me. Then I said, "you can feel it can't you?" She bowed her head lower and started to sniffle. I went to her and held her with all the love in a mother's heart. I told her I loved her so much, and that it made me hurt when I saw her hurting and that we could pray together and start to feed the yetzer ha-tov in her by purposely doing good things so that it would grow stronger than her yetzer ha-ra, and that pretty soon, it would be so easy to control her bad impulses because they had been kept under check with discipline. She held me so tightly I thought she'd pinch me in two! And she wept a truly penetant and heartfelt cry for help. Ever since that day, things have never become so out of hand. I remind her of the inward check-up and she knows what is going on. I really think she didn't know why she felt the way she did, and her anger and confusion was part of her lashing out. I am really glad that MY Yetzer Ha Ra didn't stay stirred up when dealing with her, because I would have missed a a real pinnacle turning point and a very tender moment. For what it's worth-- Shalom! Yocheved

What an absolutely wonderful story!

If only all parents had your wisdom!

Thanks for sharing.

Dov

PS: may I use it as an example when I talk about how to avoid abusing your children, and how to handle "tense and out-of-hand" situations with children. I have no problem excluding names.

Absolutely, you may use it as you please, and I don't mind if you use our names, only you should include that I had tried other methods (grounding, extra chores, etc. ) which hadn't worked when faced with her "moments". (Wish I had gone to G-d first!) Shalom, Yocheved

Thank you Yocheved!

I will be sure to include the methiods you have used that didn't work.

Dov

My children don't have a yetzer hara.

EVERY person has an inclination to do that which is good and that which is forbidden. We wouldn't be human if if we didn't. EVEN Adam and Eve had it, else we'd still be in Eden.
With respect, Yocheved

They do? I just thought they didn't behave sometimes.

Yocheved, you're an inspiration!

Nevermind.

I wasn't ignoring you, Raybin, I just didn't feel there was anything to say. If the experience didn't speak to you, it didn't speak to you. I can see no distinction between "not behaving" and Yetzer Ha-Ra (defined as the inclination to that which is forbidden, i.e. not minding--honouring-- your parents). So, there was no argument. If there is some distinction you feel you should point out, then by all means. Yocheved

B"H

Yocheved,

How does your husband discipline your two small daughters when either one, or both of them, are mis-behaving? Does he give them a spanking? Or does he simply scold them? Or perhaps only a stern look is needed to straighten up their conduct?

David

Dear David,
My husband has suffered three heart attack, so frankly, 90% of discipline is left to me. As I said, I don't spank. I don't judge those who do, (although I strongly caution doing so in anger--trust me, they aren't ggetting any message other than "when I make Mom and Dad angry enough, they hit me", so make sure that if that is the right way for you, then be certain to talk before and after calmly).

I have raised eight foster children, ages 4-13. If you have foster children, you are strictly forbidden to ever strike them (and believe me, the older ones KNOW that). They all eventually grew up or got adopted, so I am down to only my two biological girls now.
It was a great learning experience for me, because these were all level three and four children (irreparable by State standards). Some would take your car apart with a screw driver in less than 10 minutes. four were found living in downtown Houston out of garbage cans, others were abused in other ways. All I can say is that I got really creative. The youngest one was an angel.... for 6 hours. Then she didn't get her way about something she wanted so she began to scream. Really scream. We live on a farm, so I sat her on the front porch on a bench and let ehr scream all she pleased so I could finish my work, and dinner, etc. SHe screamed for no less than four HOURS. (I'm still impressed!) I made sure that the other children could be heard having a good time inside. Finally, I walked out when she was done, and dinner was over and the others were in bed, and asked if she was finished. She looked down and refused to talk. So I said "OK" and went back in and left her there another half hour. I placed her dinner on the table with her drink, (she could see all this throught the window) and returned and asked her the same thing. She answered right away that she was finished. Then I said "good, would you like some dinner?"
She did try to start yelling a week later, in a grocery mart, and I asked her if she needed to go home and sit outside. She stopped,a nd never did it again.

I don't have a simpler answer for you. I certainly DO use the cross look, and it seems to keep them in check (or rather helps thjem to keep themselves in check) but on the whole I encourage them when I see them doing things right. THat seems to work really well, because they start looking for things to do right, and realize that it gets far more attention and doting from me. I also tell them that it proves to me that theya re indeed becoming Bat and Bar Mitzot and that it makes me proud and G-d proud, and that young adults get far more power to make their own decisions because theya re about to become fully adults. Then I let them make decisions for themselves that I norrmally would have made for them. Every situation is different.

One thing I have done (NOT AS PROUD OF THIS ONE)is that if the girls are arguing and one does something ugly to the other, I sit them down and talk to them and point out how hurt the other one is. I also tend to subtly point out what they did to someone they respect, like their grandmother or uncle, and that usualy does it. Then I say, but we aren't going to do that again, right? We just had a bad day. Familial accountability can be a poignant tool.
I think handling each situation is far more effective than having a standard same tool.
Hope this helps...
Yocheved

By the way, another one that worked well was that both of them were getting ready later and later for school in the mornings. I had given them ample time to get dressed, get their books, eat, pray, get blessed, etc., but still, they would horse around and were completely ignoring what I had said about being on time. So I told them that they obviously weren't getting enough sleep at night so they needed to go to bed an hour earlier. Three nights later they were going to bed at FIVE P.M. It worked really well. They are back to their normal bedtime and haven't had that problem since.

Y.

B"H

Yocheved,

Thank you for sharing all this. You seem to be a good educator of children. Children, as you so aptly demonstrated, should be taught that they cannot always get what they want, when they want it. And, oh yes, crying will always come to a stop.

David

Sorry if I wore you out!

Was that screaming or crying for four hours? I guess when it is your own children it is called crying but when it is someone else's it is called screaming? To allow a child to cry for four hours is cruel. I don't remember any of my children crying for four hours. But they never were in foster care. If it was me I would have distracted her and encouraged her to eat dinner with the rest of the family. But who am I to say? I never did have parenting skills. It seems the children who need the hugs the most never get them.

When my firstborn was a baby I asked my Jewish pediatrician about the crying and he said that you shouldn't let them cry very long. I guess I took that information to heart for all of my children's childhood. Why don't you ask your pediatrician about the crying?

She never shed a tear. As I said , she was a screamer. I don't know anyone who gives more hugs and kisses than we do. There is no difference between the way I treat my biological children and the adopted ones on any point of discipline. I worked in orphanages for years before I was ever able to have my own. My children were raised in the middle of all my foster children and even have gone to third world countries to see that there is a world of hurting children out there. Hopefulle they will also carry the torch with regard to orphans. I never have and never will respond to angry screaming at me. Period. None of mine have ever done so afer they see it has no answer. And NO I don't believe in any of the "cry it out theories." Nobody said you don't have good parenting skills. I don't even know you. You may G-d's gift to children for all I know--literally. Or the opposite. I have no way of knowing and would presume to judge you. Yocheved

Here is the oxford dictionary definition of scream:aloud,highpitched piercing cry expressing fear,pain,extreme fright,etc.
I doubt if screaming for four hours is good for the soul. I don't think ignoring it is the answer. I think it requires intervention.

To be able to treat other children as your own is challenging. I have always been partial to my own children. I will never forget once when my children were toddlers and we were at the beach building sand castles. Some other toddlers joined us, whose mothers were sunbathing in the sand. Then a big wave came and the other children were reaching out for me to help them, but I passed them up to help my own children first.

Torah forbids this. Perhaps you shouldn't be an adoptive mother. It gives examples that say that when you adopt a child that child has to be treated BETTER. Not equal. Not less.

In your definition you never found ANGER nor RAGE, which was precisely the emotion I was talking about and dealing with.

Read, don't scan.

We clearly aren't communicating, perhaps we should end this discussion and agree to disagree. Sorry we couldn't come to a concensus. I'm sure your ways work for you. Good luck with you and yours.
Yocheved

Obviously, your little one was HUNGRY! And when you and your own children were eating,she should have been eating.

My child threw a tamptrum in a supermarket once. And then I realized that it was dinner time and she was hungry.

That is all.