quote:

if there were a war between the US and Israel (again, G-d forbid), where would a Jewish president's loyalties lie?

A Jewish person's loyalties should be for Hashem.

By a Jewish president, I presume you mean a fully kosher Jew.

Now which is worse, a civil war, such as between the 10 tribes and the 2 tribes; or between the tribe of Binyamin and the other tribes?

Or a war between a democracy with a Jewish president and Israel?

That is, since we know that it became Hashem's will that we have had civil wars, it is conceivable that a Jewish US president could be doing Hashem's will in declaring war against Israel.

Now how a kosher Yid gets to be president without becoming too actively involved in government - presuming that any kosher Yid holds Pirkei Avos in high esteem - is a different question.

And whether Hashem would tend to bring war to Israel through the hands of a rasha or through a tzadik, is also a question.

quote:

People can live a life almost as comfortable as in the US in Israel today.

I just happened to be listening to an Aish lecture in which an American rabbi in Israel was describing how in the US, specifically in a place like LA, one is considered poor if they don't have 2 cars; yet in Israel one is considered wealthy if they have 1 car.

Is this Aish lecture then outdated?

quote:

It is better to living in Israel in a city which is all Idol Worshippers than living in Galuth in a city that is all Jewish.

Since idolatry is prohibited to the goyim by the 7 Noachide Laws, and only those goyim who are Noachides are permitted to dwell among us, living in Israel in a city which allows idolaters to live among them would seem to be permitting something we are obligated to not permit!

Something does not seem to add up in this quoted balance unless the person potentially moving to this city particularly likes to kill idolaters or act zealously to rid a city in Israel of its evil ways.

Rob,
The lecture is probably outdated. The idea that cars are an indicator of wealth is like saying not having a car in New York is and indicator of poverty. In LA people need cars to get around. In NY the public transportation system is well developed. The same can be said for Israel. Things have changed quite a bit in just the past 5 years. I lived in Har Nof (Jerusalem) 5 years ago and the bus stop was in front of my apartment. I didn't need a car. Did that make me poor? Then jobs weren't plentiful as they are today.

Go to nefeshbnefesh.com. Practically all the olim coming in today are getting jobs. They will earn one half to one quarter what they earn in the US. If you are a doctor you will earn 1/8 of what you make in the US. But the cost of living is lower too. There are lots of high tech jobs now and resources to start businesses are getting better. Nefeshbnefesh has been actively helping olim the past 3-4 years and the retention rate has been 99% compared to something life 50-75% only 5 years ago.

When I say a comfortable life and I don't mean replicating an fat American lifestyle. I mean a lean "Americanesque" lifestyle....which is where we should be anyway.
Avi

I was actually more interested in understanding what the Torah said about the level to which a Jew should become active in the politics of his host society. Again, the Megillah seems to be sort of a treatise on this issue. I know the Torah says we are supposed to respect the laws of our host societies, but are we permitted to get involved in the legislation and enforcement of those laws? In other words, if we, as Jews, have an opportunity to make positive changes in society by becoming elected officials in our host societies, are we going against Torah wisdom?

Ya know, this I can't answer, but son of a gun if I didn't just sit and listen as some poor guy actually said to me: "But you know the Jews have all the money"...and, "The Jews they're running the country."

It's a truth.

Shalom

Just for grins, thinking back over the last, oh month or so, I must get "selected" for these kinds of assignments for two reasons, no three.

1. I am willing to sit through them and genuinely pity the host on the other end of them.

2. I am able to calmly address the situation and hopefully rectify the glaring misrepresentation of truth.

3. I will not, at any cost roll on the floor laughing while these types of things are being said. (which by the way, occurred in a religous organization. makes you wonder what thier websites are giving out for points )

Shalom Miriam,

I've heard that said time and time again, and it always stings just the same. Where did you hear this? I lived in the midwest for a while too, so I definitely know their attitudes. People say that almost matter-of-factly -- ignorance more than antisemitism.

Tongue in cheek.....

"We know" that as long as there is a minyan of Jews davening on planet earth somewhere, the earth is protected....indeed the universe is protected. But if there is less than 10, we are in trouble. So Jews do control the world, or at least the fate of the world....if not the universe.

I don't know about the "Jewish money" part, if anyone finds out let everyone know so we can all partake of the wealth of the tribe.

That's the "truth" of the day!
Shabbat Shalom!

Avi

quote:

That's one opinion, and a very influential one. It's not soley Chabad's either, but finds its origins somewhere in Torah. I will look for it. At the very least, it's an interesting perspective on things

I am well aware of the other opinions. In my discussion with Rav Chaim we got sidetracked and discussed this. He brought all the relavent sources to support those views.

Like Avi Said those who don't blieve in Yeshuv Eretz Israel now will argue that we have to count on some supernatural miracle to happen. They will conviently find relavent sources from certain midrashim to support their views rather than look at the clear halachic sources to support what I said.

Those views are actually not the views of Chabad but more the views of Satmar. Chabad's view is actually interesting and although may not be the same as mine, they aren't so far off.
See this link on some of the Rebbe's views
http://www.yiddishkeit.org/Default_YK.asp?ItemCode=199

quote:

quote:
It is better to living in Israel in a city which is all Idol Worshippers than living in Galuth in a city that is all Jewish.


Since idolatry is prohibited to the goyim by the 7 Noachide Laws, and only those goyim who are Noachides are permitted to dwell among us, living in Israel in a city which allows idolaters to live among them would seem to be permitting something we are obligated to not permit!

Something does not seem to add up in this quoted balance unless the person potentially moving to this city particularly likes to kill idolaters or act zealously to rid a city in Israel of its evil ways.

Rob,
The point that Chachamim are making here is that it is of great importance to live in Israel even if the conditions aren't great, such as a situation where the whole city is Goyim.

Chachamim aren't discussing here whether it is ok for them to live there and what we should do there.

I used the word idol worshippers which is the word used in the standard printed editions of the Rambam (AKUM), but that is inacurate. It is a result of christian censorship. The word the Rambam actually used which can be found in the more accurate versions is Goyim.

In any case to answer your question, it is true that we are not to allow Idol worshippers to live amongst us in Israel.
I think it can be assumed that if you are in a situation where you are the only Jew in a city full of Goyim in Israel you don't have the power to do anything about that.

Although the situation in Israel today is very far from perfect, Thank God today, you can have the opportunity to live in a variety of cities in Israel which are full of religous life.

Goyim are not allowed to live in Eretz Yisrael anyway, unless they are Geyr Toshav.
Avi

Avi,
True and the Goyim in the example are probably not Ger Toshavim. But again the point of the statement made by chazal and the Rambam wasn't to discuss the permisibility of them living there but rather the importance of living in Israel even in such a situation.

That's very interesting, Baruch; I had never read this exact quote from the Rebbe. Thanks. And you are correct -- a Jew should be in the Jewish state.