to put ahungry child on a porch to scream for four hours with no intervention is horrendous. People treat their dogs better than that. And I don't recommend it to any Jew, because it is wrong. It is not the Jewish way to raise a child.

quote:

to put ahungry child on a porch to scream for four hours with no intervention is horrendous. People treat their dogs better than that. And I don't recommend it to any Jew, because it is wrong. It is not the Jewish way to raise a child.

But that wasn't what happened, now was it? You made the assumption that the child was screaming out of hunger - but nowhere in Yocheved's posts is this said - so you are making your judgement of Yocheved's ways of raising children based on your assumption, not on FACTS. I am reminded of what the Sages says about judging people favorably...

Dov

Thankyou, Dov,
For actually reading what I wrote.
Yocheved

Even if it was about a toy that wasn't hers, there is such a thing called sharing. Whatever it was it was still wrong to put a child outside to scream and to ignore her for four hours with no intervention.

And she was hungry at the end while the others ate.

Our Sages did say to Judge favorably, but when something is obviously wrong you should speak up.

B"H

Raybin,

1) What would you do with a child (whether your own, or a foster child committed to your care) who wanted a certain thing, which you knew he should not have, or that it was bad for him to have? The child is adamant and wants his own way. You say, "No," but he starts crying. How would you deal with this? Let's say you tried comforting him, but he insisted that he only wants it his own way. He keeps crying, because he knows that in the past he has obtained his desire by crying. Would you give him what he wanted even though it was bad for him?

2) How would you deal with a child who is overly spoiled, and who always seeks attention. His way of asking for attention is by crying. Is there anyway to break him from his spoiled ways?

quote:

Originally posted by Raybin:
Even if it was about a toy that wasn't hers, there is such a thing called sharing. Whatever it was it was still wrong to put a child outside to scream and to ignore her for four hours with no intervention.

Actually it is a brilliant tactics. The child was free to move about - free to stop screaming and join the other children, free to entertain itself while screaming - as it were, the child made a choice. Her mother simply respected that choice, even if it was an uncomfortable one and at the same time sent a clear message to the childn that every action has an equal and opposite re-action - i.e our actions have consequences, and we choose thw consequences through our actions.

In this situation the child was allowed to express it's displeasure openly, freely and without restraints, i.e "you have a right to be angry" - but the message was also sent that screaming your head off is not a very functional way of getting your message across.

This kind of tactics - "ignoring the unwanted/negative behaviour" and "re-enforcing the wanted/positive behaviour" is one of the most effective and most caring and loving ways of teaching children (and dogs as it were) both boundaries and proper self-expression. Especially with children that try and use negative behaviour to get attention.

I say Yocheved handled the situation exemplary. 90% of parents had smacked the kid, or tried to plead or reason with it to be quiet, or the absolute worst - would have given in, and have ended up with a child that control the entire family through tantrums. Smacking kids is child abuse. Reasoning with a tantrumically screaming child is virtually impossible (been there tried that) and giving in sends the completely wrong message.

Well done, Yocheved!

Dov

quote:

Our Sages did say to Judge favorably, but when something is obviously wrong you should speak up.

"Obviously" according to whom and based on what facts? Were you there? Did you witness this incident with your own eyes? How do you know that what you saw with your own eyes is what actually took place? Could it be that perhaps you didn't see what you think you saw? Or what you think you saw wasn't what actually took place?

There is nothing obvious about this other than your assumptions, because your weren't there.

quote:

And she was hungry at the end while the others ate.

Again, assumptions based on empty air.

Was she? Were you her stomach in that situation?

Dov

I can't believe you people are so cold. Where are your hearts?

I don't think HaShem wants us to treat our children less than animals no matter how "Spoiled" they are.

quote:

Originally posted by Raybin:
I can't believe you people are so cold. Where are your hearts?

So you think listening to your own child screaming for four hours is easy on the heart.

I am glad I have not been a child in your house - because I would most likely have been so riddled with double messages that I would have had no idea of up or down in the world.

Read Yocheved's first posting in this discussion again, and you will see a mother with loads of heart, loads of compassion and loads wisdom.

Does Hashem let us 'get off the hook' when we misbehave? Don't we have to do teshuva, are we not expected to have a change of heart and a change of ways when we stray? Isn't Torah full of "positive actions reap positive rewards" and "negative actions reap negative rewards"? Doesn't He let us suffer the consequences of our actions? Yet, isn't He full of forgiveness and love and compassion and care? Doesn't He weigh even the mud in our favor? Why should we, as parents be any different?

Dov

quote:

Originally posted by Raybin:
I can't believe you people are so cold. Where are your hearts?

I don't think HaShem wants us to treat our children less than animals no matter how "Spoiled" they are.

Raybin,

So, could you please tell us what you would do given the same situation?

David

quote:

I don't think HaShem wants us to treat our children less than animals no matter how "Spoiled" they are.

Who here have talked about treating anyone, including animals, less than animals?

I concur with David Ben-Abraham - please tell us what you would do?

All I hear you say is how the rest of us in this discussion are doing it wrong - I don't hear you giving us any idea of what in your mind would be the "right, Jewish, way" to handle a child in a tantrum.

Dov

Just because something works, or seems like it works, doesn't make it right. You could torture prisoners and that may work, but is it right?

I asked my mother and my daughter about this question and both said it was wrong. So I did not give my children mixed messages. My daughter said it is not a question of smarts, it is a question of judgement. She would not do it.

Everyone I asked about this said that they would not do it.

The rest of the world eats pork - that doesn't make it kosher...

You still have not answered mine and David's question - That would be much more productive for the discussion, than just keep telling the rest of us that we are wrong.

Now, if you are not willing to actually answer, then you have, in my mind, forfeited this discussion, don't you think?

Dov

There are ways to not give in to the child. You can give them other choices. You can distract them from indulging in screaming. And you can talk to them and reason with them. If it is about a toy, then give them other choices. It may also be a good time to have a discussion with them about sharing. It is best to catch screaming and nip it in the bud, before it gets out of control. To drag it on for four hours is too much. If you don't want a child to scream and you allow them to scream it is a mixed message.

I don't think it is giving in to them by communicating and interacting with them.

Yes. But when what you suggest doesn't work - and believe me, I have been there, and so has Yocheved, obviously - you seem to have forgotten her first post to this thread - there's no way to reason with a tantrumic child.

Btw, you still have not told us what you would actually do in the same situation - from what I see you made some impersonal suggestions that could as well have been picked out of Oprah or Ricki Lake.

Dov

I don't watch Oprah or Ricki Lake, I guess you do or you wouldn't have said it.

One thing I would have done differently if she were to get "time out" would be to put her in her room where she could take a nap. Obviously, she was quite young, otherwise she wouldn't scream.

I see. That is usually seen as a punishment, as a measure isolation, rather than an opportunity to choose, within sight of the rest of the family. Which was what was given to her. She was being empowered to make a choice. She did have full freedom to take a nap, all she needed to do was stop screaming. Obviously she knew that.

What I am trying to say here is that by ignoring the bad behaviour (screaming) in a fashion that let's the rest of the family continue 'uninterrupted', the message is sent that bad behaviour (screaming) is not only unacceptable, but in fact quite useless as a means to get what you want.

I have found that, while "time-out" works well, it needs to be done in a manner that doesn't punish the behaviour, because the punishment becomes a measure of attention. It's the 'strike with a shoestring' to simply ignore. IMO.

Dov

I'm sorry, but children don't know when they are tired.

A tired child will fall asleep where it is - especially if it has been screaming for a while. If she didn't know if she was tired, as you say because she was a child, locking her in her room "so she could take a nap" wouldn't have resulted in her taking a nap anyway.

This is simply a matter of diffreent experiences.

Dov

I never locked my children in their room. I simply told them to stay in. And I have never locked any of my children out of the house.

If they are in the habit of taking naps and there is a bed available they usually do.Most young kids need a nap right after lunch. You can tell her that she is acting tired because she is screaming and will have to take a nap. You can tell them if they stop screaming you will read them a story first. If they didn't stop screaming for an hour I would talk to them. And would interact with them about every half hour or so until they do.

I worked in a daycare once and there were always kids who would scream theirselves to sleep. We would rub their backs and tell them "shhh". If a child screamed too much they were taken aside and given One-on-one attention.

I also think screaming is a developmental issue.
it should be addressed by a pediatrician. if it was me I would be embarrassed to tell my pediatrician that I let a child scream for four hours over a stupid toy. I guess after awhile she must have forgotten why she was screaming. Too bad.