Besides falling asleep, I think that putting them in their room is better because they may think that noone is listening and be quiet.

I did this and my children never screamed very
long.

quote:

it should be addressed by a pediatrician.

Come on, screaming isn't being SICK - get real!

Telling a child to stay in their room is eqvuivalent to locking them in and is a punishment. Doesn't work and is abusive.

This conversation is over - you ideas of what children are and what they can or cannot do are are just out-landish.

Shalom!

quote:

Originally posted by Yocheved Broscova-Guerra:

I think handling each situation is far more effective than having a standard same tool.
Hope this helps...
Yocheved

It's good to have a bag of ideas ready so that each situation can be attempted to be handled in the right way.

quote:

Originally posted by David Ben-Abraham:
B"H

Yocheved,

Thank you for sharing all this. You seem to be a good educator of children. Children, as you so aptly demonstrated, should be taught that they cannot always get what they want, when they want it. And, oh yes, crying will always come to a stop.

David

Yocheved, do you have any books that you might recommend?

Honestly, Sam, I do not have any that come directly to mind with the exception of the one I gave you informtion on (Kosher Living, Rabbi Ron Isaacs). In it, he discusses important ideas on children't rights and what is and is not Kosher or permissible with regard to them. For instance he talks about respecting their ability to make certain choices and also their rights to privacy.

I know there are good books out there, but I spend all my reading extra reading time in Torah study. My creativity in alternative forms of disuading bad behaviour and encouraging good behaviour first came from a man I met in a State-required seminar in Dallas ( required for anyone who cares for State children in a foster setting) about 12 years ago. I loved his approach, because he was EXACTLY in my setting: eight foster or adoptive children, all level 3 or 4, all with horrific pasts and all which had been "written off" by the state. Sadly, I cannot even remember his name, but his impact was amazing. He told peple from the get-go: "...spanking WORKS, but that doesn't mean you should do it. Other things work as well, and have no damaging affects." He worked on the PARENTS retraining, not the children's.

He was really big on changing the philosophy of parents from being "disciplinarians and dictators" to being deeply involved and leading by example and reinforcements.
He was right. I took copious notes, but the bottom line was really this: Be dilligent in handling each situation, even if it means inconvenience and having to put down what you are doing, so you can go and look them in the eye, and address them. Also, KNOW the child. Some things work for some children (a disappointed look, for instance, will break one of my daughter's hearts and will immediately cease her bad behaviour, and a prompt hug --reward--is necessary right after so she doesn't feel rejected.) My other child would liekly roll her eyes--water off a duck's back, or would defend why what she is doing is alright. That one has to be handled one oftwo ways: First with logic, showing why something is wrong, eith er via the affects of the action, or what Torah/Talmud says. If she is angry and has crossed the line of being reasonable(happens about 10% of the time), then she is simply looking for an argument, and I remind her tha tshe is being disrespectful if she raises her voice, and I tell her that I have given my answer. If she has a Torah-based reason why such action should be allowed, she can look it up. and then we will discuss it RESPECTFULLY based upon her own research. She will only do the research if she truly feels there is an unjustice.
I think this is a quality tool for her because it gives her a positive outlet that is also performing a mitzvah. Our house is really peaceful. Idetntifying the spirit of the discussion TO ME is the best thing to do, because if no one is getting anything out of it, then there can only be harm and the forging of a bad habit (being argumentative with parents). Things get handled or redirected usually within five minutes.

My daughter came home with three C's an F and one A her first semester at a new school. I doted on her because she made an A. I kept telling everyone how proud I was that my daughter made a PERFECT A!! My brother nearly had a heart attack. The next six weeks she came back with 3 As and no Fs. The next six weeks all As, one B. I was thrilled!

I'm sorry I couldn't offer more in the way of reading. I just try to be in the moment as much as possible and to not repeat a parroted idea. If I feel tempted to do so, then I say to them, "What am I going to say?" Then they say"That I am supposed to respec tmy sister, that she is going to be my sister forever and that I should treat her like I want to be treated." THen I say "Good, then I don't have to say that. Since you already know this, yet you aredoing such nd such anyway--then something else mus tbe som important that it is overriding what you know to be good. So what is it that is really bothering you?" Like I said, I try my best to get to the heart of issues first without just judging them or pulling the "Cause I said so , routine". Sorry if this is more than you wanted. I'm so proud of them.
-Yocheved

Yocheved, your ideas are very interesting. You sound like you know what you are doing and that it is working out very well for you, I'd say that you should keep on doing what you are doing.

Well, like I said, they are all the fruit of this man's lectures. Not directly, but philosophically. I wish I could give him his proper credit. Shalom!
Yocheved

quote:

And she was hungry at the end while the others ate.

Again, assumptions based on empty air.

Was she? Were you her stomach in that situation?

Dov[/QUOTE]

I think she was. No, I was not her stomach but I do know that children need a snack between lunch and dinner, and they should eat dinner on time.

I'm sorry if I did not read the rest of the posts directed to me. This has been very stressful for me too. So I am going on vacation and the computer is all yours. I am sorry I am such a shrew, please don't take any of this personally. That is all. Kol Tuv!

Raybin, I must add my voice to those who disagree with you. I'm not one to always agree with any expert, but all the experts do agree that ignoring a screaming child who won't listen to reason and allowing him/her a positive way to get out of that is the best course of action. I used that technique myself, with my oldest daughter: When she was three, shopping with me in a grocery store, she wanted candy. (I don't remember why I wouldn't give it to her on that day: perhaps she had already had enough, or it was just before lunch time.) I offered her several healthy choices of foods she could eat while in the shopping cart, but she got louder and louder about only wanting candy. She made quite a scene for QUITE a while, and I was extremely embarrassed. It would have been much easier (and less embarrassing) if I had given in and given her the candy. Instead, I periodically repeated in a calm voice that the answer was no but that she could have a banana or sandwich. To my absolute surprise, on my way out of the store I was stopped by THREE people who complimented me on the way I handled the situation!

Another, more serious issue occured when she was seven. The philosophy of her first grade teacher was to surround the children with learning materials but leave it to them to either use them or not. My daughter did not, and did not learn, while some others around her did learn. She did not make the connection, and when she saw the others progressing came to the conclusion that she was stupid and could not learn. I decided to home-school her for second grade, and the first two weeks went something like this: I would introduce a new skill: something just one step above what she currently knew, that I knew she could master very easily if she put her mind to it. She would hear the introduction or see it on the blackboard, announce that she couldn't do it, and refuse to even LISTEN to the explanation! I would tell her that if she listened for TWO minutes she would understand, but she was so afraid of "proving" herself stupid again that she would not listen for two seconds. Every day, for two weeks, her reaction escalated in the same way: She would ask to play. She would make loud noises and cover her ears while I spoke. She would scream and cry. She would throw things. Once in a while I would remind her calmly that all she needed to do was sit and listen and try for two minutes, and then she would be allowed to play. I did not "send her to her room" where there are toys to play with, nor "distract her" from the important point that we all need to do certain things, whether we like to or not. I also reminded her that I knew she was not stupid and I knew she could do it.

The first day, she threw a tantrum for two hours. All I did was speak calmly and follow her around to make sure she did not harm herself or seriously harm the house. Finally, seeing that I was not going to give in and she was not going to play until SHE gave in, she sat and listened to me for the required two minutes. An enormous smile spread across her face as she announced, "I UNDERSTAND IT!!! I CAN DO IT!!!" I said, "See! I told you you're not stupid!"

I thought that would be the end of it, but that scene was repeated exactly the very next day. Like the foster child, she was so used to another way of doing things and another way of thinking that she could not break her mind from her habits. No matter that I reminded her she had been able to do it the day before. She was sure she would not be able to do it today, and preferred to carry on for another two hours rather than sit for two minutes. But again, she finally wore herself out, sat and listened, and easily learned the lesson. The next two days held two-hour tantrum sessions as well. The next couple of tantrums lasted only an hour. The next few were even shorter. Finally, by being calm, reassuring, consistent, and not giving in, I changed her way of thinking and her behavior. And because of my consistency and my not distracting her, she learned what the lesson was about and never attempted to get her way with a tantrum again.

Raybin, what Yocheved and I and other parents like us do is not heartless. It would be heartless to not teach them this lesson and to let them grow to be adults not knowing how to control themselves. Perhaps your children did not need this kind of discipline. I certainly never had to do this sort of thing with my other children. Sometimes they DID need a distraction or a meal or a hug. As others have pointed out, all children and all situations are different.

You obviously have a big heart, and that is wonderful. We're just asking you to understand that others must sometimes show their heart in different ways.

Yocheved, would you like to come to my house for while? I could use some good one-on-one sessions with you to improve my parenting skills.

An excellent parenting book is: To Kindle A Soul by Rabbi Leib Keleman.

I'm also looking for more parenting books to read and learn from.

That's very sweet, but I am sure you are an awesome parent! (Not that I wouldn't love to get away for a nice visit with you.) I will look at that book, it sounds great!
Shalom! Be sure to pass on any others you find that are particularly insightful--I am an avid reader.

quote:

Originally posted by Dov:

quote:

it should be addressed by a pediatrician.

Come on, screaming isn't being SICK - get real!

Telling a child to stay in their room is eqvuivalent to locking them in and is a punishment. Doesn't work and is abusive.

Why did it work with me and mine? It is not abusive if they need a nap or they are in there for far less time than four hours. There is nothing wrong with giving a child quiet time alone, as long as they are safe and their needs are met. I am a trained nurse and I know that a good relaxation technique is to decrease stimuli.

BTW you can discuss anything about kids with a good Pediatrician. And I suggested it because they are familiar with children's developmental stages and can offer some suggestions and insight into the problem.

And, oh yes, crying will always come to a stop.

David[/QUOTE]

I am not the only one who called it crying.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Paulette:
Raybin, I must add my voice to those who disagree with you. I'm not one to always agree with any expert, but all the experts do agree that ignoring a screaming child who won't listen to reason and allowing him/her a positive way to get out of that is the best course of action."


Who are the "experts"? I doubt if any "expert" would recommend ignoring a child who is screaming OUT OF CONTROL, and all of th eir needs for FOUR hours! That is taking it to the extreme. I am surprised that people find a screaming child so entertaining (by saying she was impressed). Not giving a child any response for four hours is too much. They forget what the terms are if noone keeps telling them. There should have been some interaction in that amount of time. I think the nonverbal message that the child picked up was that she was not welcome in that home. I don't think the child understood the terms or the "Positive way out."

" I used that technique myself, with my oldest daughter: When she was three, shopping with me in a grocery store, she wanted candy. (I don't remember why I wouldn't give it to her on that day: perhaps she had already had enough, or it was just before lunch time.) I offered her several healthy choices of foods she could eat while in the shopping cart, but she got louder and louder about only wanting candy. She made quite a scene for QUITE a while, and I was extremely embarrassed. It would have been much easier (and less embarrassing) if I had given in and given her the candy. Instead, I periodically repeated in a calm voice that the answer was no but that she could have a banana or sandwich. To my absolute surprise, on my way out of the store I was stopped by THREE people who complimented me on the way I handled the situation! "

Good for you! You got compliments! But sometimes you can do the right thing with your kids and not get compliments, because evil is so widespread in this world.

That is good that you didn't ignore her then but you talked to her and tried to reason with her.

When my children screamed I
sometimes told them to use their words. Now my daughter babysits for a living, and when her children scream she tells them to use their words instead. I thought hmmm, where did she learn that from?

It would be heartless to not teach them this lesson and to let them grow to be adults not knowing how to control themselves.

Hashem controls my children. They are all adults now, including my fourteen yearold son,David. The question is not that they can control themselves, but can they control the world around them. And I think they do. They are nobody's slaves.

My oldest son, Ben, was a handful to raise. When he was in fifth grade the teacher called him a swearword in front of the whole class. So he walked out, and came home. I didn't punish him for it because I thought he did the right thing, to flee from evil. Why should he put up with that kind of abuse? Then I let him drop out of school when he was fifteen, because I figured he had learned enough there. He has been living with the same girl since the age of seventeen, that is nine years. He is a self taught glassblower and is self employed. He camps out in the boonies where there are bears and mountain lions. And he has dogs to protect him. Also, he is an avid fisherman. He does not drive, and I am so proud of him for that. He has long dreadlocks, but keeps his hair completely covered at all times. He has a healthy fear of G-d, and love of nature. o He smokes, but Jews that smoke are remembering the Holocaust in their subconcious, I think. And he is the grandson of Holocaust survivors. Also, I think young people smoke because they are dealing with air pollution and global warming problems. Maybe Ben didn't learn to do the same things that other people do. One thing about him is that he always talked back. I don't notice that he does anymore. He collects gemstones, and gave me a big amythist gemstone candleholder this summer. I gave him a Tallit with black stripes. He immediately put it on and asked me several questions about it, including what was written on it in Hebrew. I could not answer. When he was five the doctor asked him to draw a picture of a boy, but he refused because he didn't have a blue crayon...The black Tallit reminded me of the blue crayon. I so badly wanted to give Ben the Tallit with blue stripes for that reason. You see, I gave David the Tallit with the blue stripes, because he is the youngest and he has suffered without a mother for so long that I gave him a choice, and he chose the blue Striped Tallit with the silver (but it is really white)crown on the Tallit bag. Bens Tallit bag has a Gold crown on it.

David slept with his father until he was eight years old,(it's a big bed) because I wasn't there. He has also spent alot of time alone on the computer and sitting in a big chair (I call it a throne) watching TV. I wouldn't have left him at such a young age but it was as if G-d told me that he would be very great if I did.

My oldest daughter.Shosh, has a college degree, and is a nine to fiver. She has always worked with women and girls, and womens issues. She is married and expecting my first grandson.

My youngest daughter. Sarah, surfs (I think it is a way to tame the water)
So Hashem keeps things going for them, that's for sure.

Your daughter is a surfer? What does she wear to the beach?

Shalom Everyone,

I just came across this thread; I'm sorry I didn't read it sooner. Yocheved, what an inspired, compassionate course of action! It's obvious, but bears repeating, that you are an exceptionally talented parent, and, I'm proud to say, a "very Jewish one" at that. Yasher Koach!

Can anyone elaborate on the Talmudic view of corporeal punishment? It never ceases to amaze me how such an ancient text can be so progressive and modern (and then, of course, I remind myself of its author). I'm sure that for most of history, common (nonJewish) wisdom held that the only effective means of punishment was physical: "spare the rod, spoil the child." Did Judaism always prefer noncorporeal punishment? Is this dealt with anywhere else in the Talmud?

quote:

Originally posted by Yocheved Broscova-Guerra:
Your daughter is a surfer? What does she wear to the beach?

What do you wear to a mikveh? Whatever she wears, Hashem protects her. Clothes aren't as important as you think. I have been dressed totally properly when I had serious trouble with men. So it's all what Hashem dishes out to you. When she was sixteen she only wore dresses and skirts, but that all changed with time as she wanted to fit into society better, to get jobs, I guess. And it is a way to keep a lower profile. Maybe it is a flaw that she is no longer modest, but there are many flaws that Hashem can still work with. She is still an important part of our family, and we love her. I really think it is a mitzvah for her to surf. It is spiritually good for the water and environment. Now, I am not recommending that everyone drop everything and go surf. Sarah is unique and fears and relies on Hashem. She has learned it from a young age.

I'm sorry to be seen to be nit-picking, but if your daughter fears Hashem, why does she not follow what Hashem has said needs to be done?

Shalom Chaim,

If you really want elaboration on this topic, buy the book 'Defending the Human Spirit - Jewish Law's Vision for a Moral Society' by Rabbi Dr. Warren Goldstein, Chief Rabbi of South Africa. It's a really fascinating book, comparing the Jewish Law system to the Western one. There's a general theme throughout the book that shows how Western thinking and law is slowly, but surely, edging closer to that of Judaism.

The mishna considers a Sanhedrin that puts someone to death once in 70 years to be blood-thirsty! In fact, I think it was Rabban Gamliel who said that if he were to be in the Sanhedrin, the death penalty would never be carried out. The criteria needed for a death penalty are so far-fetched it's almost impossible to meet them.

That quote of yours: 'Spare the rod, spoil the child' is actually very much a Jewish concept. I'll try find the source.

Dovi