Shalom Dovi,

Thanks so much for the information. It was my impression that "spare the rod, spoil the child" meant that physical discipline was necessary for children, or maybe just discipline in general (with which we all agree). I believe it appears in Proverbs 13-24.

quote:

I'm sure that for most of history, common (nonJewish) wisdom held that the only effective means of punishment was physical: "spare the rod, spoil the child." Did Judaism always prefer noncorporeal punishment? Is this dealt with anywhere else in the Talmud?

Shalom Chaim,

I don't know if I'm misunderstanding you: by the above, what do you mean by: "Did Judaism always prefer noncorporeal punishment?" Do you mean: has Judaism always prefered that we don't punish? It seems to me that that has never been our view, as we know from that quote in Mishlei, and various other places. (It's so hard to understand what's being said in an Internet forum; one can't see the face or hear the tone of voice of he who is speaking.)

If I'm not mistaken, the first chapter of Tractate Makos discusses how the punishment of lashing should be carried out. On daf 30a of Kiddushin it says that one can hit his child until age 16, because from that age onwards the child will kick back!

Dovi

Shalom Dovi,

Sorry about the misunderstanding. Yes, I am curious if Judaism condones corporeal punishment for children. I know that discipline is sanctioned, but not whether physical discipline is allowed.

Your quote from the Talmud seems to be at odds with the "discipline your child with a shoe-lace" theory. I am just wondering how to resolve this discrepancy.

quote:

The mishna considers a Sanhedrin that puts someone to death once in 70 years to be blood-thirsty! In fact, I think it was Rabban Gamliel who said that if he were to be in the Sanhedrin, the death penalty would never be carried out.

I have read this, and love to quote this mitzvah everytime someone misrepresents Judaism as being unforgiving.

Chaim: There are various quotes which can be taken from our sources, many of which seem to be in conflict. I will say that i seem to see a common factor for the most part...for instance the theme seems to be that the "shoelace theory" EXCEPT in those cases wherein a child's behaviour is so profoundly abhorrant before HaSh-m that the child has endangered him/herself of being judged by the Beis Din. The idea: it's better to strike your child than for them to be in danger of HaSh-m's and/or the court's judgement. Moreover a parent was, and in some cases still is, responsible for the actions (FROM A JUDGEMENT STANDPOINT) of a wayward child.

This is the extreme case, of course, and could be likened to perhaps David Melech and his son Absolom (sp). Perhaps Absolom's own death could have been prevented?? I don't know. But I do see a common thread in that if (G-d Forbid) a person had a child of such a rebellious spirit that they were endangering themselves and the family, that that child would be dealt with far more harshly and would be treated as an exception to the NORMATIVE LOVING SHOELACE THEORY. My parents were not hitters but I once became superiorly angry with my mother and said something aweful for the first time in my life. I promptly received a well-deserved slap across the face. While I would not do that to my children, I feel the sting to this day when I think of saying something cruel or mean and think the lesson was in that rare case acceptable.

I do know that the Talmud ALLOWS parents a great deal of latitude that I will likely never explore. But what is allowed isn't mandated.

I hope I haven't served to further confuse you.

Shalom Yocheved,

That was very helpful. I'm actually used to the apparent contradictions in Jewish wisdom, so that's really not a problem. I was just curious whether the overall approach to Jewish discipline was considerably less physical than other cultures'. And I think the answer is "yes". It's just another comforting thought that shows how fair and enlightened Judaism really is.

Raybin:

I am not judging you, I am only concerned because you seem to be extraordinarily concerned with alternative forms of discipline which are non-violent and COMPLETELY kosher (classical meaning of the word: acceptable, appropriate in the eyes of HaSh-m), YET you seem to be completely UNCONCERNED for laws being broken with regard to modesty which is a clear violation. Another post you once wrote said that you knew some Rabbi that said all food is kosher and you lived by that advice at one time.

But then, perhaps I am missing something--am I assuming you are Orthodox and you really aren't? I apologize in that case for pointing out laws that you don't live by.

I DO BELIEVE CLOTHES ARE IMPORTANT--EXTRAORDINARILY SO, BECAUSE HASH-M SAYS THEY ARE. Not only because of modesty but also right down to what they are made of or blended with. But if you aren't Orthodox then you may not be concerned with such things and I have wasted your time.

On the other hand--your life is really none of my business.

Shalom, Chaim!

Yes, I believe you are exactly correct. I am certain that in various parts of the world the Talmud/Torah are approached in slightly different ways as per the area. For instance, in Jewish shtetls nearer to Saudi Arabia there is likely to be more influence from that culture, in America, more emphasis on those entries which are more to our culture's liking will be quoted and so on. But overall, our culture (I think) is a world leader (AS IT SHOULD BE) with regard to mercy, nurturing, human rights and justice. --But then, I AM biased!

What is certain is that our sages have long been whole-heartedly DEDICATED to the betterment of our children and their spiritual education. I think we are unparalelled in that respect. It is the foremost concern in my mind (the eduaction of my children) for the simple reason reason that before I go try to help the world, I must first help my own children because THEY are the world my G-d placed me into. They are the context of my life on this planet. I raise them in the most loving, helpful and nurturing way I can NOW, so they will hopefully stand by my side LATER when I am working directly with the orphanages in India. In the meantime, I train them in the importance of Tzedakkah and the outright living ideal of CHessed as an ADVERB. I am very concerned that I and my children and their children after them leave this world better than they found it. May HaSh-m help us ALL to do this. And may it be HIS WILL that we all find the way to do this daily. SOrry, I am preaching.

Shalom all,

As the pasuk in Mishlei says - 'Chanoch L'Na'ar al pi DARKO' - Raise up (that word 'chanoch' doesn't actually translate well) the child ACCORDING TO HIS WAY. Each of the five siblings in my family went to five completely different school's with five completely different viewpoints. (And I think we turned out fine...) So I suppose the child that needs the shoelace - give the shoelace. And the child that need the rod - don't spare the rod!

I suppose it also depends on the society one lives in. Western society is very soft, so we need loving kindness. But Eastern culture - they're tough! They still need love, but in a different way.

Out of interest - where is the source for the 'shoelace' theory?

Dovi

Shalom, Dovi!

Talmudic sage says, If you strike a child,. strike him only with a shoelace (Bava Batra, 21a.).

It has also been translated "If you MUST strike a child..."

Hope this helps

And does anyone know how thick the shoelaces were back then?

'"I am not judging you, I am only concerned because you seem to be extraordinarily concerned with alternative forms of discipline which are non-violent and COMPLETELY kosher (classical meaning of the word: acceptable, appropriate in the eyes of HaSh-m),"

How do you know it is appropriate in the eyes of Hashem? I really don't want to keep having this argument, but letting a child scream for four hours is violent I think. It is very stressful for the child and it is as if the child has no parent at all for four hours, since none of her needs are being met. That is a nap, a snack, going to the bathroom ( anyone who doesn't use the bathroom for four hours has got to be pretty stressed out), and dinner, and even going to bed for the night. I don't know what the tempurature outside was for four hours but maybe she needed a sweater too. Maybe it was too hot or too cold. I just don't see how you can call that kosher. And putting the child outside (was the door closed?) gave it the message that it is not welcome in the home. That is all I am saying.



"YET you seem to be completely UNCONCERNED for laws being broken with regard to modesty which is a clear violation."

I am not unconcerned, I admitted it was a flaw.
I keep the laws of modesty, and even cover my head. But my daughter is an adult now and she can choose how to dress. Believe me both my mother and I are concerned about how she dresses.


"Another post you once wrote said that you knew some Rabbi that said all food is kosher and you lived by that advice at one time. "


She was not a rabbi, she was a good friend of mine. She did not say all food is kosher, but
thi
a jew can eat anything. Meaning that you can eat nonkosher and still be a Jew. Her advice helped me alot because I had to move to a place where it was very difficult for me to eat kosher.



"SBut then, perhaps I am missing something--am I assuming you are Orthodox and you really aren't? I apologize in that case for pointing out laws that you don't live by. "

I am orthodox, but I do not live in an orthodox community anymore. I may not be as Orthodox as most people because I am alone so I keep the laws to the best of my ability. I hardly light candles on Shabbat because most of the time I don't have any, but I never drive on Shabbat and it has been that way for years.

I DO BELIEVE CLOTHES ARE IMPORTANT--EXTRAORDINARILY SO, BECAUSE HASH-M SAYS THEY ARE. Not only because of modesty but also right down to what they are made of or blended with.

Yes, I agree, it is always nice not to be naked and to have beautiful clothes. I prefer natural fibers. I think youre right, but you missed my point.

"But if you aren't Orthodox then you may not be concerned with such things and I have wasted your time."

No, I am concerned and you haven't wasted my time.

"On the other hand--your life is really none of my business"

Thank you.

Chaim:

Ha Ha! No, I am afraid I haven't a clue as to how thick the shoelaces were!! But I will tell you something, once Yemina spoke back harshly ( and regrettably judgementally to her sister) and I actually pulled the laces out of the shoes in her closet and flung the feeble strings across her back side and she giggled at first, then blushed when she got the point. Sometimes words are best when taken literally!!

Raybin:

Thankyou for that. I think I understand better your position now. Let me, if you will, then encourage you! You are not alone in your endeavor to keep the ways of our ancestors and most importantly of our G-d! I too, live far from community and feel like a diaspora of diaspora. The food thing can be challenging in our collective situation, but be encouraged to continue. THere are great sources online so it doesn't matter where you are you should be able to get kosher food, especially for special occasions if it is too expensive to have delivered all the time. It is too expensive for me all the time, so I gather kosher meats on those occasions that I am close enough to a large city that carries them, and all the rest of the year, I simply eat vegetarian. It is amazing at much more simply the dietary laws an be kept through that method. It worked for Esther, Shadrach, Meshach, Abed-Nego (spelling) and others in exile and HaSh-m honoured them for their efforts! Last night we had chick peas, hominy, black beans, rice, yellow squash and corn. FOr dessert, peaches and pineapple. Dinners are easy and inexpensive. As to the candles on Shabbos-- I will be happy to send you as many as you need if you desire! Send me a mailing address. My email is torahlover@sbcglobal.net I know it is hard sometimes, but it can be done.

Shalom, Yocheved
P.S. I was once terribly distressed about all the laws and their difficulty of fulfillment out here in the country away from community and perchance(?) found myself on the telephone with a n Orthodox Rebbe in NY and he encouraged me and rallyed the community there to pray for my strength and endurance and said to me: DOn't weary in your spirit, Yocheved, for though no one else is around you who cares what laws you live by, be assured that HaShem is watching you and honours all that you do before Him. Many here (in his community) do what is right because of the pressure of community around them. But you are doing it because you love HaShem and He sees this and will remember you!

The same is true for you and all others like us who love HaSh-m and struggle all the more to be pleasing in His sight. I and others admire you for your efforts. Please keep all HIs commands. You will be rewarded for it. Sorry if I sound like a cheer-leader. My words are true, even if my tone may be annoying. It is unintentional.

quote:

I am orthodox, but I do not live in an orthodox community anymore. I may not be as Orthodox as most people because I am alone so I keep the laws to the best of my ability. I hardly light candles on Shabbat because most of the time I don't have any, but I never drive on Shabbat and it has been that way for years.

How funny! I DO light my candles but HAVE to drive an hour and a half on Shabbos to get to the nearest SHul!

Halachically, one is forbidden to go to shul on Shul on shabbos if one is going to be driving. If one cannot go to shul on Shabbos bec. of the distance, then one is not required to go.

If we did not go to Shul on Shabbos, we would have no contact with community at all, ever. Because that is the only time the girls and I have the opportunity. my Rebbe told me that I should not complain about the distance and SHOULD drive the girls to Shul because his mother drove him two hours one way to SHul every shabbos and now he is a Rabbi and would not be if he hadn't that experience with community. Moreover he said it was wrong for me to stay home on SHabbos when I live in America--in a land where I should thank G-d that I CAN go to Shul without fear of real persecution (unlike in our old country and in other parts of the world). He said "get your kids to Shul". I said "yes, Rebbe," and have been actively attending ever since. The children's education has grown by leaps and bounds--and so has mine. This is NOT IDEAL, but it is the best I can do for my children so they do not assimilate as they are otherwise immersed in this society (school is the only other place they have to socialize, and it is secular--I don't like them identifying even subconsciously with non-Jewish children as their only peers.) Sorry if this offends, but I have to do what is best for them. If they are not around community, their chances of marrying a goy are very high, no matter how I preach, and I don't want that.

quote:

his mother drove him two hours one way to SHul every shabbos and now he is a Rabbi and would not be if he hadn't that experience with community. Moreover he said it was wrong for me to stay home on SHabbos when I live in America

These are 2 interesting points he has made.

I would be interested to hear his answer to 2 questions:

1) Would he drive himself to shul or have his mother drive him to shul now in his life?

2) If someone followed the approach in Sam's post above, or the similar way that my rabbi once mentioned in shul*, would your rabbi say that such is a wrong interpretation of the applicable halacha? And how so.


*In shul our rabbi gave a nice speech regarding those who drive to shul on Shabbos or Yom Tov in order to say kaddish for a loved one - he concluded saying that it would be a greater honor and merit for their loved one in such a case to KEEP Shabbos in their honor and forego the opportunity to say kaddish for them themselves.

Remembering we are diaspora...
So your advice to me is to never go to Shul again and keep my children from community altogether? I want to make sure I am understanding you correctly.

Hi, I'm new here and this happens to be the first post I've read. I hope you don't mind if I chime in.

Disciplining children is an extremely difficult task. It's not easy for anyone to raise a child, but with the right tools it can be made easier. Having four kids five and under, tantrums, whining, fighting, and disciplining are a way of life for me, baruch Hashem, along with joy, laughter, fun, and hugs, baruch Hashem.

I just wanted to comment on the situation Yocheved described with the child who screamed for four hours, and the ensuing disagreement with Raybin. I must sound like I'm trying to pleasse both sides, but I really do see why both sides feels the way they do, though I think in this case Yocheved did teh right thing.

Raybin, I would agree that under ordinary circumstances it is wrong to let a child scream for four hours. However, these are not ordinary circumstances, and this is not an ordinary child. This is a foster child who has been categorized as "irreparable" by state standards.

Like Raybin, I only have biological children, but I used to communicate with a foster mother and I learned a lot from her. A foster child like the once described has typically suffered terribly in her life, having been passed from home to home, lived on the streets, and in all likelihood suffered abuse. They have no sense of stability, and no trust in anyone but themselves. While al this stirs the pity in our hearts, and rightly so, it brings out certain survival/defense mechanisms in the child. The child can have severe anger and self-control issues, and be extremely manipulative in her attempt to have some control over her chaotic life.

One of the first jobs of a foster mother, and I've heard this from a foster mother, is to take away the child's "weapons." One of the weapons of many foster children is to threaten the parents that the child will call her caseworker to complain against the family or have herself removed. The appropriate response is to continue to love the child and speak kindly, but tell them you'd be happy to make the call right now, would she like you to? The answer is usually no, but in this way the child learns not to threaten the family in any way because it doesn't work and will only get her sent to yet another home if she follows through.

It takes a long time, a lot of love, and a tremendous amount of consistent, fair discipline to turn a child like that around and have them love you. But it can be done. Children need tremendous amounts of unconditional love, but they also need structure and limits. When the limits are firmly in place, and enforced in a kind but firm way, a child feels secure.

When one of my children wants something they shouldn't have and I say no, and all distractions fail, I let them cry and have a tantrum. Yes, I try to hug them or hold them and comfort them, but often in their anger and frustration they push me away, and I give them the space they need. Most often, after at most 10 minutes of crying they get to the point where they'll let me hold them, and I will - but I never give in. I don't teach my children that they get what they want by screaming.

Evidently, Yocheved's child learned that she can terrorize a family into giving in to her demands by screaming mercilessly for hours. An ordinary child would never scream for four hours straight. My own children would never do that. But a child who is completely out of control would. And, in this case, she did.

In the Torah, the right hand represents chessed (kindness) and the left hand represents gevurah (holding back). When we discipline a child, we should do so with both hands. So even though I'm firm with my children when necessary (gevurah), I soothe them at the same time (chessed). But only when they let me - sometimes they need that space to cool down first. In the case of an extreme child, such as this "irreparable" one, that could be four hours the first time. But as you can see, the second time she tried it she saw it wouldn't work and she stopped. She had learned to control herself.

The child learned a tough lesson, but a good lesson. The mother never made her feel abandoned, she made her presence known and tried to soothe her, she let her know she was there for her. She never gave in, but she continued to care for her and give her supper, and, most importantly of all, ever yelled or hit. This way, the child learned that while she was not in control of this family, and rightly so, she would also never be abused by it.

Raybin, please forgive me for saying this - since I don't know you what I'm about to say isn't personal - but your posts seem to be way more emotional and attacking than seems fitting. I get the sense that you have issues to work through. I also find it hard to believe that your children never cry - the only way that would be possible would be if you're giving them whatever they want, when they want it, which isn't good either. I hope I'm wrong, and I hope you can believe me that this is not meant to be a personal attack, just an outsider's observation.

Good Shabbos everyone.

Peace,
Diny

quote:

Originally posted by rob:

quote:

his mother drove him two hours one way to SHul every shabbos and now he is a Rabbi and would not be if he hadn't that experience with community. Moreover he said it was wrong for me to stay home on SHabbos when I live in America

These are 2 interesting points he has made.

I would be interested to hear his answer to 2 questions:

I would also like to hear the "Rabbis" answers. I put it in "quotes" because from this "Rabbi" suggesting to travel on Shabbos, is not going according to Halacha and is therefore not a Rabbi to be following.

Yocheved: Your comment about the "Diaspora", I have no idea what you are saying. Please clarify. And that still doesn't negate the prohibition of violating the Shabbos.