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I don't think they make people sit on benches for four hours even in our jails.
The fact that she obeyed you and stayed seated says that she wasn't such a "terrorist, afterall. That alone should have given her enough merit to get off the bench after two hours, at the most. Actually, ANY child should be released after two hours, because that is the most time they should go without a break. If it were my son, he would just wonder off and walk away. |
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I said two hours, but since it's a bench I think one hour is more appropriate.
If you released her from the bench after one hour, do you think she would stop screaming? Why wouldn't you want her to? |
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I don't think it's right when children scream to provoke them to more screaming by giving them more things to scream about. Why put the extra burden on our children/ It seems to be a common mistake that parents make in the name of disapline. We are not to provoke our children to anger. And when they scream, it often becomes a battle of the wills between the caregiver and the child. Why is this; AND why must the parents always win/ Why not the child/ At least sometimes. Especially when the parent's expectations have proved to be unreasonable. Why put that burden on our children? What gets to me is when people think that they are such great parents because they never bend the rules and ALWAYS WIN the battle of the wills.
Real teaching is never done by abusing a child. The only thing that abuse does is TRAUMATIZE a child into obeying you when you threaten them with the abuse again. |
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Raybin, it's not a matter of 'winning'. It's a matter of the child having a problem and the parents' job is to help the child learn how to deal with his/her problem. A good parent is able to step back from the situation and not get emotionally embroiled, but keeps his/her calm, recognizing that the child is not 'out to get' the parent, but that the child has a problem. We, as parents are there to teach and guide our children. There is no winning or losing.
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Children lose when their physical and emotional needs are not being met on account of an abusive "lesson" by a caregiver who has no mercy or compassion for the child because they are so embroiled in trying to make the child submit to them and their stupid "lesson". It is sad when the demands on the child are so abnormal and far greater than what the child can bear. I am sorry but i see it as very abusive. |
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In no way, do I see the situation originally described as being abusive. Her child had a problem, solutions were offered, the child CHOSE not to accept them and continued doing what the child felt she had to do until she was ready to help herself.
Kol hakavod to Yocheved, who as I've said before, is more than welcome in my home so I can learn first-hand from her. |
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It seems this subject is not going to die. I keep thinking we are going to "agree to disagree" but we never seem to, as it takes TWO to agree to disagree.
There is one point I would like to make before bowing out of this entirely. It was posted several pages ago by myself and others, but somehow has seemed to go unread/unheeded, so, in the hopes that THAT is the true misunderstanding, I will attempt one LAST time to reconcile this matter: The child DID NOT HAVE TO SIT THERE FOR 30 SECONDS!!! The child, (Tammy) had only to stay out there IF she continued to decide to SCREAM. She could scream, or she could play in the house. BUT she could NOT do BOTH. She made a choice, and lived with that choice ONLY unti she made A DIFFERENT choice. I never MADE her stop screaming and cursing at me, I never even MADE her sit down as it were, she could walk around, lie down kicking and screaming, if she liked, (she did not choose to do so). The ONLY thing she could NOT do, was ABUSE ME in my own house. Period. AT ANY MOMENT, (and she knew this, as it WAS explained to her) she could come inside so long as it was in peace. According to our sages, SHALOM BAYIS IS PARAMOUNT. And it can only be achieved and maintained so long as the home and the others in it are RESPECTED. And so long as the hierarchy is stable and intact. Children are not the heads of the family, much as it revolves around them, and must be reminded that they are not, and while love, warmth and acceptance is inside, sin, shameful behaviour, and disrespect are not welcome, (not inside of this home, anyway). Am I idealistic? Perhaps. Am I strict? Most definitely. Do I apologize for either of these? Certainly not. I am sorry if that offends, but I would be a liar to "pretend online" to be that which I am not nor to mislead any into thinking that I intend to change on these points. I have raised many children...eleven in total (ten at one time, 2 of them from my own body), myself, and with nearly NO HELP, financially, emotionally, or otherwise. Moreover I have worked in third world countries with orphans--hundreds of them. I am not inexperienced as a mother, care-taker, nor disciplinarian. I am sure that has made me a bit stricter than some, but none of my children will ever tell you that I have even yelled at them. Frankly, I think yelling and screaming is abuse. I don't like it. I don't do it. I don't tolerate it. If a person cannot express themselves with even the smallest measure of dignity and respect for themselves if not for others, than that is sad indeed. Again, they can do as they please, but will not have my presence while doing so. I am not saying a person cannot raise their voice in protest(parent OR child). I am talking about abusive screaming. Huge difference. There is no grey area. I have always allowed children to punish or reward themselves with their own behaviours by creating an atmosphere wherein they live with decisions they make. If they do not clean their rooms, then they don't have to. But they will not go where they please until they do so. It is their choice. I am a patient woman. I can wait. They will need me or my services far before I will be needing theirs. When they do well in school, and they are commended, they are celebrated at home, doted over before every visitor, describing their achievements. They even eat on a special plate reserved for acts of honour. Typically this environment breeds the desire to do and be well, as it is heartily rewarded. Shameful behaviour is ignored completely, and NEVER rewarded with my attention--THAT is reserved for those who are working hard at doing well...why should the ones who are exercising self-discipline be punished on account of a person who is NOT? Rarely after they push me to no avail, do they attempt to continue to do so. If you thought me a monster-mother already, I am certain this added info. will arm you to think more lowly of me. To other single mothers out there, I am sure they know EXACTLY what I am talking about--whether or not they agree. EVERYONE has their own path to parenthood, just like they have their own spiritual path. We should respect one another's, recognizing that every child, every parent, every home, indeed every situation is as unique as a fingerprint, and must be sought out in such a way to find the path of wisdom FOR THAT SITUATION. This is my own belief. It works for me. You are, as always, entitled to your opinion. And, though you may not believe it, I truly do respect it, even if it does not work for me. |
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Again, we have two different philosophies. To me, it is cruel and without compassion to refuse to discipline a child. They grow up without understanding dignity, respect for others, and without the tools necessary to embark upon the path to maturity. These are NOT (to my mind) "stupid lessons". EVEN HaSh-m DISCIPLINES US!! IS THAT CRUEL AS WELL? Are we not to immitate Him? Does He not allow us to live with the fruit of our bad decisions until such time that we perform teshuva? Shalom |
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The "solution" to the problem that was offered obviously was not a solution, it only made the problem worse. After a certain amount of time it should have been obvious to the parent that the "solution" to the problem would not work for that child. The demand on this child was too great. Children are children. They need parents to make decisions for them when they are too young or too out of control to make those decisions theirselves. I am talking about a parent who would remove the child from the bench after a reasonable amount of time and nurture the child by providing for its physical needs, such as bathroom, snack and dinner. Also, screaming is often a red flag that the child has needs that aren't being met. For a parent to ignore them is pure negligence. I am talking human rights here! Like I said I don't think they treat kids that way in our schools and daycare centers. Four hours on a bench is too long! It is like what I heard about learning Torah. You need to have all your physical needs met or you can't learn it. it is definitely the same with children. |
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Again, we have two different philosophies. To me, it is cruel and without compassion to refuse to discipline a child. They grow up without understanding dignity, respect for others, and without the tools necessary to embark upon the path to maturity. These are NOT (to my mind) "stupid lessons". There are other ways of disaplining children without making them sit on a bench for four hours, not providing them with a bathroom break, or making them go hungry. EVEN HaSh-m DISCIPLINES US!! IS THAT CRUEL AS WELL? Are we not to immitate Him? Does He not allow us to live with the fruit of our bad decisions until such time that we perform teshuva? " Like I said making a child sit on a bench for four hours is a bad decision. It is cruel and unusual punishment! |
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Why didn't you bring a snack out to her on the porch? And simply ask her if she needed to use the bathroom? If you are so skilled with children it would have been second nature to you to consider their needs. We should always keep the lines of communication open with our children. Talking to them doesn't mean we aren't strict.
Also, it probably would have distracted her. |
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Raybin, Yocheved WAS considering her child's needs. By bringing a snack or offering a trip to the bathroom that would have undermined the good which she was doing - which was: allowing the child to make her own choice - to come inside and eat, to stop screaming, to come inside and use the bathroom, etc.
I'm sorry that you cannot see how this was for the child's better good. |
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The reason I didn't drop this case is because if there are human right's violation's in this case, then there are probably more violations if this is their normal practice.
It is cruel and unusual punishment to make a child sit on a bench for four hours, which she did do and no you cannot hold the child responsible for the abuse by saying that the child did not make the right decision. The caregiver is still responsible for the fact that the child was on the bench for too long and none of her physical needs were met. After two hours the child should have been released from the bench and given a break, whether she was screaming or not. |
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You are blaming it all on the child by saying she did not have to sit there for 30 seconds when in truth she HAD to sit there because you made her sit there since she couldn't control herself and stop screaming. You were the one who was punishing her for screaming by making her sit there. And you being the adult in this case makes you the guilty party. You cannot blame the child, who is only a child and can only make childlike decisions. I would like to know the age of the child because obviously this "decision" philosophy of yours was not age appropriate.
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