Yesterday in shul I sat behind a woman who was eating a nice crunchy apple during the Torah reading. And she was right near the front of the balcony.

When there is a Bar Mitzvah or other special event, the noise upstairs is deafening. And there is a lot of bare flesh.

I'm mentioning just three things that seem obviously incorrect, but I daresay there are many others.

The reason I am mentioning this is that I've long wondered if more communal activity of a religious nature, including classes and small, topic groups might help alleviate such improper behavior. Perhaps ignorance and alienation are big factors, so that lessening this might lead to better observance.

Rosemary

Good question!The rabbi of the shul is the first person with whom to discuss this. You could send a nice letter to those people involved. AN announcement on the shul's bulletin board should be posted. If the shul has a regular newsletter,which it should,an article about shul decorum should be a regular feature. The people involved in wrongful (unknowingly)behavior could be invited for Shabbos meals at your house or /and other families who could,at the Shabbos table,discreetly discuss these topics in a relaxed way. Guest speakers could be invited to lecture about this topic at shul get-togethers,such as a Melaveh Malkah or Shabbos luncheon. Shiurim for ladies and men could be arranged for Shabbos and weeknights geared towards various halachic issues. Hope this helps.

This is an issue that comes up quite frequently, but it never ceases to amaze me that we often forget how careful we have to be when telling the women section to quiet down. Baruch Hashem they are in shul and perhaps doing an amazing job keeping small children quiet. Therefore, whether you talk to the Shul's Rabbi or invite someone over for an informal talk, always remember not to embarrass anyone. This is the critical point.

Our Rabbi touched on this a while ago. He said it was amazing how when you go to a cinema or a theatre, people are silent. If someone has an invitation to Buckingham Palace or the White House, they are on their best behaviour. Why then, when in Shul when people should be busy (I for one do not have time to talk, even if I wanted to), do people feel that its ok to talk?

In fact, if you put those same talking Jewish people in a Church service, you'd find that they are quiet and 'respectful' in fear of offending the Christian worshippers.

Why is this the case? It doesn't make a lot of sense. (This is where the talk got a little political / offensive to some parents). If someone has grown up in an environment, going to Shul every week as a young child, then the Shul is like their second home. The children run around playing behind the Bimah. They show no respect for the Shul (its not their fault - they are young). When they grow older, they also see the Shul as their second home, and therefore treat it in the same way. If a child is not brought to the Synagogue until an age of Chochmah, then they will show more respect to the place as a child, and therefore as an adult.

The big question is what to do when you have so many disrespecful adults in a large orthadox community. Barmitzvahs, I think are difficult. There are so many guests. Its difficult. I've been to an orthadox Barmitzvah in an orthadox Shul, where the guests' children were taking photos with their mobile phones on Shabbos! So forget the Barmitzvahs for now. Concentrate on the core of the Kehilla. I think if when the Rabbi speaks, he does a series of talks on how important certain parts of the service are, people will start not to talk during those parts.

quote:

(I for one do not have time to talk, even if I wanted to),

Given that people daven at different speeds, and have varying amounts of special personal inserts to their prayers, since we synchronize together for many parts of the service, by definition there will be some people waiting, and other people trying to compensate for having fallen behind.

It would seem that those who daven quickly and without personal insertions must wait for the congregation to finish before the chazan will recite a repetition of a Shemoneh Esrei, or a kadish.

Is this the sort of time when we find people have the tendency to talk?

How about at a time when after an aliyah if someone wishes to recite a long list of names which don't come easily to them to remember? Do we find that this is a time when people tend to start talking?

It would seem to me that anyone who doesn't have time to talk must be busying themselves with something at some parts of the service.

Very well said!!Rav S. Scwab z.t.'l.,used to write and speak in a similar vein. It also never ceases to make me wonder why those in shul who are more "yeshivish" think it's OK for them to blatantly scmooze during KADDISH,Haftarah,chazoras ha shatz,etc. These are the same people who also can't say "hello" or Gut shabbos" to others after davening unless they belong to the "elite". The children see this and pick up the message of hypocrisy early on. We have no understanding of Yir'as Shomayim. Some think,wrongly,that it is OK to tell over a"chiddush" during the davening. We must get the Roshei Yeshivah to be strcter about this,not only the Rabbonim,

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Rabbi Mitterhoff,

I don't know exactly who you're referring to, but in my experience, the Yeshivas and Kollelim are the pinnacle of decorum during Davening.

The purpose of this forum is to bring Torah learning to people, and not to besmirch Talmidai Chachumi that you have an ax to grind against. As I quote "These are the same people who also can't say "hello" or "Gut shabbos" to others after davening unless they belong to the "elite". The children see this and pick up the message of hypocrisy early on. We have no understanding of Yir'as Shomayim. "

I understand that you may feel out of the loop, as this phenomena is mentioned in Tosfos Kesuvos 62b D"H DiHaveh, but this is not the proper way to deal with it.

That may very well be true that in the yeshivos it's not like that. Unfortunately,in shuls,it is and that's the experience I've had,and many people I know have had and tried to change..I can only speak from my experience.

In the shul(s) i daven,there is a rule that limits 6 or 7 names to a Mi-shebairach,and the oleh is advised to bring a list of the names he wants to include.If the name is not known,it is not said and one does not ask for someone to get the name to the gabbai if it means interrupting the smooth flow of the leining.

I don't find (generally) that its the people who daven properly and quickly that talk. Its the ones who 'do their bit' that talk the most. That is the hardest to deal with. There are people I know who only come to Shul to shmooze. They talk all through the service; Kaddish, Shemoneh Esreh, Leining, etc. But - its the only yiddishkeit they get. If you shut them up, they'll have 'no reason' to come to Shul and will probably leave.

I did a Haftora a few weeks ago and when people started talking, I just got louder and louder. I'm not sure if it was the right thing to do, but it made a point I think.