I would have liked to add this to the "silence or to speak" forum but it seems Anonymous Members can post initially only.

Yisroel had just said "The Gemara in Kiddushin 70a says:

And what is a sign of pure birth [Yichus]? One who hears insults about himself and keeps silent, as Rav Ada says – The pure lineage of a Babylonian is silence." I am not sure what a " Babylonian" is but the message seems to be that, if one is a good type of person, one keeps quiet after being insulted.

I am wondering if one SHOULD speak after being insulted such as when an older child is abusing oneself, the parent. The child could do it for the first time, occasionally or very often and very badly. It is the last type I am most concerned about. I am seeing this from the view that it is the duty of the parent to try to guide the child to behave well. Some children can speak very abusively indeed. Such as (yes, in one long rant)" Why do you ask that? You're stupid and crazy! What's the matter with you to talk like that? But it's what I'd expect of you. You can't even.... All you do is... You never will.. And do my washing before I get home. And I need a lift to the shops now, right now!" Of course there are different ways one could speak in return. But I can tell you that nothing except " Yes, dear" would get a good response in the case I am talking about.

Another example is whether to keep quiet when abused or ignored (which seems like a kind of abuse) by her husband when she tells him calmly that she wants a change to how he will not do something (that it is reasonable to expect) such as to ever give her money to buy food or to allow her to plan the meals. We are not talking about a wife who could not cook appropriately or shop well. The man seems to have always had some issue about giving housekeeping money and instead does all the shopping and doesn't do it well so that what is bought is as needed ,easy to make meals from, or as is wanted by the family.

If the woman keeps silent in these circumstances, what is the difference between her and the doormat that people wipe their feet on and walk on and over?

quote:

I am wondering if one SHOULD speak after being insulted such as when an older child is abusing oneself, the parent. The child could do it for the first time, occasionally or very often and very badly. It is the last type I am most concerned about.

These are not the sort of insults the Gemara is talking about. Cetianly, parents have a duty to educate their children in the ways of the Torah, which include not being disrespectful to parents.

quote:

If the woman keeps silent in these circumstances, what is the difference between her and the doormat that people wipe their feet on and walk on and over?

You are right; any wife must expect, and has the right, to be treated in a respectful way by her husband.

I have just copied the three posts of this topic onto a thread I started " To speak or be silent" and replied myself

quote:

I would have liked to add this to the "silence or to speak" forum but it seems Anonymous Members can post initially only.

I would like to deal with this on a philosophical level and then on a practical level.

Philosophically (though I'm not holding there myself, so not to make any misconception that I'm a bigger Tzadik than I am ) what is the problem of hearing abusive words? If your child is screaming at you and calls you X does that make you X? Of course not. If you think into it, why is she arguing with you? Because you told Him/her something that she disagrees with you. So why don't you just listen to their opinion. Because you understand that your opinion is so much better than theirs. So when they call you X, and you know you're not X, so they're wrong again. Especially that you know they said it at a moment of anger and they're not thinking rationally.

In other words, with the right attitude, it doesn't need to hurt per se. If someone lives with the adage of sticks and stones etc. but words can never hurt me, then he would never answer back in anger. though it doesn't mean to turn the other cheek, and you can stand up for yourself, but not answering tit for tat, and just because your insulted, so you'll answer in anger to insult back. This doesn't help the situation. One should answer nicely, but firmly, your objections without getting hot headed.


The Gemarah in Shabbos 105b comes to mind
I will bring the paraphrasing of the Gemarah from Kolel Iyun Hadaf


(Permission is granted to print and redistribute this

material

as long as this header and the footer at the end are

included.)

If one tore out of

anger, or if a mourner tore [his clothing] on account of

his Mes, he is liable;

is he Mechayev for something

destructive?!

(q) Answer #1 (R. Avin): It is considered constructive, for

it calms his anger.

(r) Question: This is forbidden [for it strengthens the

Yetzer - it is not constructive]!

1. (Beraisa - R. Shimon ben Elazar): One who tears his

clothes or breaks Kelim in his anger is like one who

serves idolatry, for this is the way of the Yetzer

ha'Ra - today it tells one to do a small

transgression, and another one tomorrow, in the end

it gets him to serve idolatry! (Iyun Yakov - doing

the desire of his Yetzer in place of that of his

Creator is itself like idolatry.)

2. (R. Avin): He learns from "Lo Yihyeh Vecha El Zar

v'Lo Sishtachaveh l'El Nechar" - the foreign god

in a person is his Yetzer ha'Ra (if he obeys it,

in the end he will bow to idolatry).

(s) Answer #2: The case is, he did so to instill fear in his

household;

1. [To instill fear, Chachamim would do actions that

appeared destructive -] Rav Yehudah would remove

the edge from his garment, Rav Acha bar Yakov would

break Kelim that were already broken, Rav Sheshes

would throw brine at his Shifchah (it is not fitting

to drink - Yoma 81A), and R. Aba would break a lid.

For further information on

subscriptions, archives and sponsorships,

contact Kollel Iyun Hadaf,

daf@shemayisrael.co.il
It would seem that as long as your not doing out of anger, but constantly in self control, you can feign anger to teach a lesson.

Unfortunately, I cannot say that I can do this practically. I sometimes find myself telling myself that there is no logical reason why this should bother me, but it still does.

But I think there are levels to attain. The Gemarah is basically talking about when someone calls you something while you're passing them in the street. DO you stop and argue and scream with the person, or do you just ignore it and keep on walking. (It's not talking about getting constant abuse.) So we can all work on this, to minimize our non necessary answering back just because we were slightly insulted.

We are assuming this woman is married to a Jewish man. If a Jewish man is abusing his wife, there is a measure of halachic recourse that could be brought to bear. Although a Jewish woman who is married to a goy is not married, situations of abuse do arise. The rules would be different if the man is not a Jew. How different would they be?

Yes, this is very good guidance. We sometimes see a person who is very reactive to real or imagined abuse that is from a stranger or virtual stranger. I have been impressed by how some people have a really good skill at being lightly accepting or joking and it can turn what could have been a nasty situation into a pleasant one.

quote:

The Gemarah is basically talking about when someone calls you something while you're passing them in the street. DO you stop and argue and scream with the person, or do you just ignore it and keep on walking. (It's not talking about getting constant abuse.) So we can all work on this, to minimize our non necessary answering back just because we were slightly insulted.

quote:

These are not the sort of insults the Gemara is talking about. Cetianly, parents have a duty to educate their children in the ways of the Torah, which include not being disrespectful to parents.

What if the insults, let's say loshon hora, do not come from somebody in the street or from a child. Maybe they come from a colleague, a fellow student or community member, or a husband. What is one to do then?

There is a very big risk, is there not, that a person will take offense if you speak back and say you do not agree?

But let's say it is not a risk of physical retaliation if one responds to abuse. But I will not say "just" words as, as Miriam Adahan makes clear in "Sticks and Stones : Identifying and Avoiding All Forms of Abuse" (1997), words can be used as weapons and they can do real damage.

quote:

What if the insults, let's say loshon hora, do not come from somebody in the street or from a child. Maybe they come from a colleague, a fellow student or community member, or a husband. What is one to do then?

This is too hard, isn't it?

As I said a number of times, I was raised in Moscow - a very antisemitic place. And my appearance leaves little doubt as to my national origin. I did hear a lot of bad things about me muttered in the street, from "there goes a jew-boy" to "Eew, a kike!" I never reacted to these. But when I was attacked physically - I always fought back. I lost some, and I won some of those street fights. I never let them hit the proverbial other cheek.

Now. Regarding the child's abusive behavior. I don't know why this is even a question. Torah commands us and therefore our children to honor our mother and father. That's it. How we achieve that respect - by spanking, by denying a toy, by talking back at our kids - is up to each of us. We know our children better than any counselor, even if to us this is the one and only child, whereas the counselor is armed with all the arsenal of sociological and psychological knowledge. However, when my daughter talked to me in this manner

quote:

"Why do you ask that? You're stupid and crazy! What's the matter with you to talk like that? But it's what I'd expect of you. You can't even.... All you do is... You never will.. And do my washing before I get home. And I need a lift to the shops now, right now!"

- then I simply did not let her do things she liked most - from eating ice cream to playing on the computer, or I would set an early curfew and not let her read at night. (she's 17 now, and the last outbreak like that was about 4 years ago; never again, so I never had to take away her car keys.)

quote:

Of course there are different ways one could speak in return. But I can tell you that nothing except " Yes, dear" would get a good response in the case I am talking about.

Well, I don't know. What you call a good response now is like the lentil soup that Esau wanted so badly. When your child is obnoxious, it usually means he or she is asking you to set limits, no matter how much it pains you and/or the child.

quote:

Now. Regarding the child's abusive behavior. I don't know why this is even a question.

Yes, I read the first post carefully again after reading what you said, especially the bit of your post that I selected to quote. Why does it become a question then? We would not normally think the question should be asked.

That was when I went beck to the first post. I think the thing is that the circumstances are not usual. This sounds bad.

If we look at the facts, we have an abusive child and husband. The child could be following the bad behaviour of the father. Maybe one could even say this is very likely what is going on. I noted that the child is not young. This would make the idea of the child's copying the father more likely, given that the father is abusive and not considerate.

Again I went again to the first post. The question asked seems to be about what to do if one is being abused in a chronic situation of abuse in a home situation with both husband and child abusing the wife, "abuse" being used here to cover various things.

It would then be a messy , unpleasant and ongoing scenario that we are talking about and I can hear this. But I need to turn it over to somebody else to respond to further. In the meantime I will think about it.