hi everyone
i know the bible sais you must honer your parents, but what if your parents are not very honerable?
would a child be sinning by desrespecting, parents who where just plain evil?

B"H

Ilana,

The Gemara brings a case where a certain woman was beating her son in public (a thing which obviously causes great shame), and even cast his wallet (purse) into the sea, yet did he do nothing to abuse his mother. He lowered his head, and succumbed to such mistreatment, without doing a thing to harm her. The story comes in order to inculcate unto us just how far we ought to go in order to perform the commandment of honouring our parents - even in the face of affronts or physical abuse.

Sincerely,
David

hi david
i understand that honering parents is an important comand but is thire no torah law protecting the children?

B"H

Ilana,

How could ever honouring one's parents become detrimental to himself? Perhaps I'm missing something in the equation.

David

hi david
what i meen is
what if a parent is braking torah laws and encouraging/demanding that the child also break the torah laws, if the child honers the parent he/she break vital torah law, if the child refuses the parents demands and dihoners the parent, than the child still breaks torah law, the kid cant win, in that situation what should the child do?

Ilana, that's an easy one to answer. The parents are also bound by the Torah law that they are asking their child to break, so the child must not listen to his parents in such circumstances. He must, however, be respectful in his refusal.

Quote "what if a parent is braking torah laws and encouraging/demanding that the child also break the torah laws, if the child honors the parent he/she break vital torah law, if the child refuses the parents demands and dishonors the parent, than the child still breaks torah law, the kid cant win, in that situation what should the child do?"

The Gemarah in Yevomos 5b says as paraphrased by Kollel Iyun Hadaf

1. (Beraisa): One might think that honoring parents overrides Shabbos - "A man will fear his parents, and keep my Shabbosos" - all of you (even your parents) must honor Hash-m!
As far as in general is there any obligation to honor a parent that is evil is a Machlokes between the Mechaber and Rama. So the S'fardim needs to and the Ashkenazim do not.

BUt this is not so simple in our day and age that people that grow up without being taught the Torah and Mitzvos are in the category of being evil, rather of those of being victims of their circumstance like a "child that was kidnapped by Goyim." Such parents would still needed to be honored, though of course you cannot listen to their demands not to keep Torah and Mitzvos. This is not easy to be able to be respectful when it comes to arguing with parents that you don't see eye to eye with. But try your best.

hi yisroel
surlly it depends wich torah comand the child is asked to break, if it is some thing like the sabbath, or keeping kosher, then sure, the kid can respectfully decline, but suppose the laws that the parent wishes the child to break are laws of insest, how can a child be expected to feel even an ounce of respect for a parent like that, what is a parent, surlly being a parent meens more than just having a child, to be a honerable parent you surlly need to protect the child and raise him/her to the best of your abillity, not use the child like he/she is some sort of toy

There's an article that I found from www.aish.com which can be found here:

http://www.aish.com/literacy/mitzvahs/Honoring_Parents.asp

B"H

Ilana,

In the case of incest (may G-d forbid that anyone of us ever be tempted by the like of such ill actions), it would be considered honouring the parent if the child should wilfully decide to be removed from the reach of his/her parent who has fallen to such things. In this way, the child prevents his parent from falling into such a heinous crime.

Sometimes, the act of honour depends on the outcome, rather than on how it is initially observed by onlookers. It is possible to cause one's father to pull the wheel of a heavy millstone, and yet inherit the Garden of Eden. It is also possible to feed one's father's fattened quails, and yet inherit hell. It depends on what his reasons were for doing it.

David

quote:

Originally posted by ilana:
hi yisroel
surlly it depends wich torah comand the child is asked to break, if it is some thing like the sabbath, or keeping kosher, then sure, the kid can respectfully decline, but suppose the laws that the parent wishes the child to break are laws of insest, how can a child be expected to feel even an ounce of respect for a parent like that, what is a parent, surlly being a parent meens more than just having a child, to be a honerable parent you surlly need to protect the child and raise him/her to the best of your abillity, not use the child like he/she is some sort of toy

Hi,

I think i understand your point however please correct me if I get it wrong.

The reason we honour our parents is not because they are "honarable" people as if that would be the case you are right and it would be an impossible mitzvah. Rather we are honouring our parents because Hashem has told us to honour them. Which might sound strange initially however in practise it is much easier to honour them then by doing it because we feel so. The difference that comes out from this approach is that anything the parent requests fromt he child which is against the will of the Torah, incest inculded, he has to decline. He has to decline it in a way which still keeps the child within the Torah boundaries, i.e. respectfully. What he has to realise is that much like when you see someone drive on Shabboss chollilah, he would justify it by saying maybe the person does no know, the same with regard to his parent maybe his parents where abused and cant get out of the rut they are in.

quote:

Originally posted by ilana:
hi everyone
i know the bible sais you must honer your parents, but what if your parents are not very honerable?
would a child be sinning by desrespecting, parents who where just plain evil?

Then Ben Ish Chay, Rabbi Yosef Chaym , Chief Rabbi of Baghdad, a while back (1900's I think) teaches in Ben Ish Chay, that even if your mother and father come up to you in front of everyone and rip your clothes, spit in your face, and beat you. You have to take it without saying anything.

hi amichai
tell me are there no jewish laws that protect the children?

I think its referring to a case of adults (usually the case is given that the parent is too old and senile that they do this). The parent still has no right to do this to the offspring, yet the child cannot get Chutzpadik.

quote:

Originally posted by ilana:
hi amichai
tell me are there no jewish laws that protect the children?

Hi Ilana

I was thinking and thinking about your question. There are hallachot and I unfortunately don't know them well enough. You've prompted me to study it more. Thank you

So on Shabbat, I read the story of Concubine and the horrendous act done by Binaymin.

The response of the rest of the tribes of Israel, is the Jewish attitude to the value of someone's children.

She was afterall the daughter of the nice man of Betlehem.

Read the story, cry, and understand how much we value our children.

(Surely, you will ask me afterwards why the rest of the tribes of Israel killed the Binyamite children. I don't think that is a contradiction. A society that has a totally perverted attitude towards to one of the holiest act, will need an extreme purification, especially if it's in Israel. Then again that is just my understanding of it, and I'm nobody really)

P.S. Make sure to read it with a commentary, I recommend the Ramban's commentary, otherwise it won't make much sense what happened in this tragic event.

quote:

So on Shabbat, I read the story of Concubine and the horrendous act done by Binaymin.

What are your thoughts on the Beis Din which ordered everyone from the Town to present themselves to the Beis Din? And the death penalty given to them for failing to appear?

Sorry I answered the wrong question:

You mean at first before the war, or at the end when there were a few suvivors of Binyamin?

Before the war when the Beis Din ordered all of the Town / Tribe to turn in the original perpetrators... they ignored this order and nearly all incurred a death penalty apparently for ignoring this Beis Din order.

According to the commentaries. I think it was Ramban.

Every tribe has it's Beit Din system. The other tribes were so angered about what happened, that they went up in arms. But they should have confronted the Bet Din of Binaymin to do justice against the town of Gibeah. This is also the reason why at first the other tribes lost so many men, because Hashem didn't want the war, he wanted Binyamin's Beit Din to be approached.

Binyamin resented that their Beit Din wasn't approached to take justice, and were also concerned that what the rest of Israel was requesting, the surrended of the guilty ones to them, was not in accordance to Torah. So they refused to corporate.


I don't know if the Beit Din of Binyamin would have done justice, but they should have been approchaed about it. Given them a chance.

At first Hashem wasn't with the other tribes. Even though He spoke to them. He wasn't in agreement with them.

Only after they repented and totally surrendered their will to Him, and after Binaymim proved themselves to really enjoy killing their brothers on the battlefield (they were overzealous in killing their brothers instead of being defensive), did Hashem give the tribes victory over Binyamin.