I have a question concerning veggie burgers. Would it be considered not kashrut if someone ate dairy with a veggie burger? Is a veggie burger really considered meat in the Jewish dietary law? I hope I worded my question so you all can understand what I mean. Your answers are, as always, greatly appreciated.

A veggie burger with no meat products in it is not considered meat

Thank you! What about chicken and fish? Are they considered to be meat?

Chicken has the same laws as meat.Fish does not.

Interesting.

What makes fish different from other animals to where you do not consider it meat? I know some vegetarians eat fish but say they don't eat meat (thanks to Kerri ). What makes the difference? I have always considered fish meat like other animals. In the prohibited animals list (lev. 11; Deu 14) it says that water animals must have fins and scales. This means it must be a fish, without scales and fins it is not a fish. Wouldn't this mean that fish is the same as cow, a kosher meat?

I really don't understand this viewpoint, can you please explain it?

I'm sorry. I've always looked at fish as animals I just always thought that they'd never go exstinct and my not eating them wouldn't do them any good. Now I eat fish very seldom because I've read that fish feel pain and how they are killed. I no longer eat fish sandwiches at fast food places (which I love). Anyways, I try not to eat fish any more. By the way, pretty much all vegetarians don't eat fish

quote:

Originally posted by Eric W. Anderson:
Interesting.

What makes fish different from other animals to where you do not consider it meat? I know some vegetarians eat fish but say they don't eat meat (thanks to Kerri ). What makes the difference? I have always considered fish meat like other animals. In the prohibited animals list (lev. 11; Deu 14) it says that water animals must have fins and scales. This means it must be a fish, without scales and fins it is not a fish. Wouldn't this mean that fish is the same as cow, a kosher meat?

I really don't understand this viewpoint, can you please explain it?

An animal, to be kosher, must have certain "signs", namely it must have split hooves and chew the cud. A fish obviously doesn't have those signs and so is not an animal for the purposes of the dietary laws.

The law against cooking and eating milk and meat together also only applies to kosher animals (sepcifically domesticated ones like cows and sheep, as opposed to wild ones like deer). We learn this from the thrice written verse, "Do not boil a kid in its mother's milk."

The Rabbis of the Talmud made their own law (which they had the power to do) that forbids the cooking and eating of wild animals and fowl (chickens, etc) together so as to prevent one getting confused with real meat.

Fish were never included in any of these laws, save that certain fish are kosher and others not.

A vegetarian might consider fish as "meat" from the point of view of not eating any living thing. That I can understand, but it doesn't make it "meat" for Jewish Law purposes.

Ohhh! Thank You Stephen for the explanation!!!

I never really gave it much thought about the milk and meat until now, but I totally understand what you were implying.

what exactly is the reasoning for not having the milk with meat?

thanks
love
lis

You eat the meat of a cow who was once a mother. You get milk from another cow. If you mix them together you'd be boiling a kid in his mother's milk. It's a sad thing to do. Hope this helps. I found it hard to explain even though I knew what it meant.

There might be a problem with eating a veggie burger with milk for other people who will see you eating it. There are those that suggest having a wrapper or some way of letting others know that it is not made of meat. This is the concept known as "maaris ayin" - "the appearance of the eye".

Sam,
Im learing everyday, at first I was under the impression that it was not to make any items with meat and milk together combined, but now I am getting the impression that you are not to have the two together even if they are seperate courses?

Not sure if I am understanding correctly, so If I sound foolish in asking please forgive me.

thanks
love
lis

Hi Lisa,
What I'm saying is that one would need to make sure that other people when they see you eating this burger know clearly that this is a veggie burger when they see you eating the burger with milk.

This concept also applies to a person, let's say this person is a known rabbi (it applies to any Jewish person - but an example with a rabbi would make the idea that much stronger). And this rabbi lives near a McDonalds, he would not be allowed to go into the McDonalds to EVEN buy a soda! This is to make sure that there is no suspicion at all on this rabbi!

But on the other hand if this same rabbi were travelling on the road and needed to use the restroom and there is only a McDonalds available to use - there isn't this suspicion because everyone will notice that he is just passing through.

As to the point that you are bringing up, I don't see any prohibition to have milk with a VEGGIE burger. As to a MEAT burger correct, one cannot eat it with milk.

Hope that clears up your confusion.

That is correct Lisa. The two cannot be eaten together and after eating meat there is a waiting period before one milk products. According to most it is a six hour waiting period

quote:

Originally posted by Lisa:
what exactly is the reasoning for not having the milk with meat?

We don't know the reason. The Torah tells us this and so we obey; end of story. This applies to all the laws of kashrus.

Of course, many Rabbis have tried to suggest reasons, but this is mainly to strengthen our observance.

Thank You,

So this rule would apply for any food substance that might even contain a hint of milk? Like having icecream, or some other item after dinner, or perhaps coffee creamer in the morning, you would wait about 6 hours before eating lunch if it contained meat, unless it was fish?

This conversation reminds me of that movie with Cher and Nicholas Cage where she had the two refridgerators. The Milk and Meat are not even allowed to be in the same area correct?

love
lis

Sam,
You lost me on the McDonalds thing.
Sorry Why would the Rabbi not be allowed to go to the McDonalds, because they serve milk and meat together?

So this would mean that there are designated Jewish areas that Jewish people can only go to eat at?

love
lis

Hi Lisa, let me try and explain a little better.

A person needs to protect themself from having other people even remotely think that this person is doing something wrong. Therefore, a person going into a local non-kosher establishment creates the illusion or "ma'aris ayin" - "appearance of the eye" since he probably can for sure go to a local kosher store.

Now, in regards to the veggie burger being eaten with milk, the possiblity of even remotely thinking that something wrong is being done, needs to be removed. Thus, having the wrapper with you at the time of eating the veggie burger removes the "ma'aris ayin" issue.

Hope this helps you.

quote:

Originally posted by Rabbi Y. Kacev:
According to most it is a six hour waiting period

There are others that hold the beginning of the 5th hour going into the sixth; and German Jews hold 3 hours is enough.

quote:

Originally posted by Lisa:
Thank You,

So this rule would apply for any food substance that might even contain a hint of milk? Like having icecream, or some other item after dinner, or perhaps coffee creamer in the morning, you would wait about 6 hours before eating lunch if it contained meat, unless it was fish?

This conversation reminds me of that movie with Cher and Nicholas Cage where she had the two refridgerators. The Milk and Meat are not even allowed to be in the same area correct?

love
lis

The rule only applies to eating milky foods after meat and also meat after what is called hard cheese (very mature cheese). So a steak after a cup of milky coffee is OK but not the other way around.

Although we like, if possible, to keep milk and meat separate (e.g. separate counter tops or sinks, and certainly separate utensils) it is not really necessary where they are cold, so 2 fridges is not required.

Dutch Jews only keep 1 hour between meat and milk.