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I have a question. Do Jewish people believe that the people who were bad in their natural lives are reincarnated to fix their wrong doings in the life they lived before? Your answers are greatly appreciated.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Rabbi Mitterhoff,

It's mostly accepted concept of "Gilgulim" which are reincarnation

Is this concept akin to what I have read before about 'transmigration of souls'?

I am referring to the transmigration of souls that is mentioned is the siddur for the bedtime siddur.

Is the Sefer Gilgulim part of Kaballah? How can there be reincarnation when the scriptures teach that man die once? (Genesis 3:19, Ecclesiastes 3:20)

Shalom

our bodies may die once, but the soul is eternal. That is just a guess, however

I thought "bad" people were not offered a share of the world to come when they died; this was how HaShem punished them. How would reincarnation fit in with Judaism? I understand the concept in Hinduism, but how could a person be reincarnated in Judaism?

Reincarnation - as a matter of common course for the soul's existence - was not a widely accepted belief among Jews until sometime in the Middle Ages. Even then, I believe this was something held more by mystics (though not all) than the common layman. This is not to say that it does not exist, but that if it does, its knowledge is of little benefit.

Good point of reference, Jay. The great Jewish philosopher, Sa'adia Gaon, wrote an essay explaining how this belief is not logical in his opus, "Beliefs and Opinions."

If you're concerned about the condition of your soul, I suggest you take an accounting of the here and now which you know, and not the past in which you don't know if you even existed.

Cheers

Reincarnation is an integral part of the Torah of the Ari'zal, which is accepted by all Jews, laymen and scholars alike. The Ari received his Torah via direct heavenly revelation, and is not based on human intellect. Those generations prior to Ari were ignorant of his unique understanding of the cosmos. Therefore even giants of Torah like Rabeinu Sa'adia were unable to comprehend solely by the power of the intellect the concept of gilgulim.
Since gilgulim is another chance to correct past sins and character shortcomings, how do we know what we must accomplish in this life in the absence of a prophet or great zaddik to guide us?
I think, (I may have seen this idea in a sefer) if we are sensitive and alert to our inner-self one can pick up those negative character traits and sins that constantly prey on us and challenge us the majority of the time. These are the areas where we must invest most of our energy and thought to correct, so that when the time comes to leave this life we will be a better person then when we entered it.

quote:

Originally posted by Shmuel Kessler:
Reincarnation is an integral part of the Torah of the Ari'zal, which is accepted by all Jews, laymen and scholars alike. The Ari received his Torah via direct heavenly revelation, and is not based on human intellect. Those generations prior to Ari were ignorant of his unique understanding of the cosmos. Therefore even giants of Torah like Rabeinu Sa'adia were unable to comprehend solely by the power of the intellect the concept of gilgulim.
Since gilgulim is another chance to correct past sins and character shortcomings, how do we know what we must accomplish in this life in the absence of a prophet or great zaddik to guide us?
I think, (I may have seen this idea in a sefer) if we are sensitive and alert to our inner-self one can pick up those negative character traits and sins that constantly prey on us and challenge us the majority of the time. These are the areas where we must invest most of our energy and thought to correct, so that when the time comes to leave this life we will be a better person then when we entered it.

Not all Torah observant Jews accept gilgul as true. If all Jews believe in it, why does gilgul remain controversial among the observant? Since when is the acceptance of gilgul an article of faith? The 13 principles of faith are not opposed by the observant. Why isn't gilgul a part of it? If this was revelation direct from G-d, why does the doctrine not have halakhic status?

Everything you state in your second paragraph can be done without the knowledge of a prior, were that in fact the case. Cheshvon hanefesh is one that requires deep introspection and monitoring, which can be accomplished without knowing where your soul was before it resided in the current body. Do you know of anyone, who knows for a fact that his soul was in a prior incarnation, and what kind of life that soul led?

Now, we can be and are deeply affected by the character of our fathers and mothers, not only in the raising and rearing, but even in the act of conception. That is a widely accepted teaching. The actions of our ancestors and the nation(s) from which we descend come to visit us, and play a signficant part in our lives.

shalom kerri
As you can see the issue of reincarnation varries depending on who you ask. some believe in reincarnation and others do not. and those who do believe in it also vary in their understanding of process of reincarnation.

just another thought, sorry for the interpution but considering that we have Joseph and Moses both that were scholars in Egyptian, and considering the fact that the Tribes lived their as well and all, and not to mention the fact that the past fathers were laid to rest / sleep with their fathers, then how is it that the teachings of egypt are still thought upon, seeing that somebody did not write that it was taught?

Or perhaps Moses did write about it and if so, can somebody tell me where in the Torah I can too read about it.

thanks
love
lis

quote:

Originally posted by Andy Overall:

quote:

Originally posted by Shmuel Kessler:
Reincarnation is an integral part of the Torah of the Ari'zal, which is accepted by all Jews, laymen and scholars alike. The Ari received his Torah via direct heavenly revelation, and is not based on human intellect. Those generations prior to Ari were ignorant of his unique understanding of the cosmos. Therefore even giants of Torah like Rabeinu Sa'adia were unable to comprehend solely by the power of the intellect the concept of gilgulim.
Since gilgulim is another chance to correct past sins and character shortcomings, how do we know what we must accomplish in this life in the absence of a prophet or great zaddik to guide us?
I think, (I may have seen this idea in a sefer) if we are sensitive and alert to our inner-self one can pick up those negative character traits and sins that constantly prey on us and challenge us the majority of the time. These are the areas where we must invest most of our energy and thought to correct, so that when the time comes to leave this life we will be a better person then when we entered it.

Not all Torah observant Jews accept gilgul as true. If all Jews believe in it, why does gilgul remain controversial among the observant? Since when is the acceptance of gilgul an article of faith? The 13 principles of faith are not opposed by the observant. Why isn't gilgul a part of it? If this was revelation direct from G-d, why does the doctrine not have halakhic status?

Everything you state in your second paragraph can be done without the knowledge of a prior, were that in fact the case. Cheshvon hanefesh is one that requires deep introspection and monitoring, which can be accomplished without knowing where your soul was before it resided in the current body. Do you know of anyone, who knows for a fact that his soul was in a prior incarnation, and what kind of life that soul led?

Now, we can be and are deeply affected by the character of our fathers and mothers, not only in the raising and rearing, but even in the act of conception. That is a widely accepted teaching. The actions of our ancestors and the nation(s) from which we descend come to visit us, and play a signficant part in our lives.

You're absolutely right, a Jew is not required to believe in gilgulim as it's not one of the 13 principles of faith as you pointed out. The 13 principles of faith are the basic foundations of Torah that are the barest minimum that one must accept in order to be a believer. At the same time it does'nt include the vast body of all the teachings of the Oral-Torah,like Midrash,Zohar and Agaddah which are clarifications and commentary on the 13 principles. Likewise the teachings of Kabbalah help deepen our understanding of the Creators relationship with this world, and thereby strengthen our belief in him [see Ram'chals Klakh Pitkha Chokhma, first Petakh].
The teaching of the Ari'zal cannot be classified as Halakha since it does'nt pertain to the practical aspect of Torah. Further more, a heavenly revelation is not accepted in Halakha according to the principle "lo bashomayim he", meaning that only "practical" Torah that is deduced by the human intellect (of Torah-scholars) can be accepted as Halakha.
As far as I know there is no controversy concerning the acceptance of gilgulim among Torah-observant Jews.

The concept of reincarnation can be found in the Zohar, Bemidbar, Section 3

How could King Solomon praise the dead more than the living, seeing that only he is called “living” who walks in the way of truth in this world, while the wicked man who does not walk in the way of truth is called “dead”? We must, however, look at the words which follow, “which are already dead”. This refers to one who has already died but who has the opportunity to return to this world in order that he may rectify (his previous life); verily this one is more to be praised than the other dead, because he has received his punishment, and he is more to be praised than the living who have not yet received their punishment.

The Ramchal explains in his sefer the Way of G-d 2:3:8-10

There is another important principle regarding God's providence. God arranged matters so that man's chances of achieving ultimate salvation should be maximized, as discussed earlier.

A single soul can be reincarnated a number of times in different bodies, and in this manner, it can rectify the damage done in previous incarnations Similarly, it can also achieve perfection that was not attained in its previous incarnations.

The soul is then ultimately judged at the end of all these incarnations. Its judgment will depend on everything that took place in all its incarnations, as well as its status as an individual in each one.

When an individual has a reincarnated soul, it is possible that he will be affected in a particular manner as a result of his deeds in a previous incarnation. The situation in which he is placed may follow from this, and this situation may bring with it the special responsibility given to him, as discussed earlier.

God's judgment of each individual is extremely precise, depending on every aspect of his nature and including every detail of his exact situation. But in the Future World, which is the true good, no individual is required to sustain a liability which is not the result of his own doing, but a result of his mission and responsibility in this world, as parceled out by the Highest Wisdom. In cases such as these, the individual is judged accordingly.

There are many details in the concept of reincarnation, involving the manner in which an individual is judged according to one incarnation, and how this judgment depends on previous incarnations. The crucial point, however, is the fact that all is truly fair and just, as the Torah states (Deuteronomy 3 2:7), "The Creator's work is perfect, all His ways are justice."

No created thing can encompass God's thoughts or the profound depth of His plan. We only know that, like all other such concepts, the principle of reincarnation as one of man's experiences also follows the rule of fair judgment, as decreed by God to perfect mankind in general.

Translation by Aryeh Kaplan

Thank you!

love
lis

as we have heard from one side let us hear from the other side of this area.

"Furthermore let me explain that hte soul and the body constitute one agent, as it is remarked at the very beginning of man's creation "Then the L=rd G-d formed man of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life. Similarly are they both either rewarded or punished together..." ---Saadiah Goan

The Goan goes on in making these types of statments and he is not alone the RamBam did not acknowldge the concept of gigul (E.J)nor did his son and fact they rejected it as well the talmud relate a tale which Antoinus says to Rabbi


---Book of Beliefs and Opinion Treatise 6 Chatper 5

---Sanhedrin 91

as one can see the issue of reincarnation within Judaism is not a simple matter. however your question is "does it exist within Judaism and to the end yes. to what degree do observent Jews actully truelly believe it I don't know.

Yes, I have read that portion in "Beliefs and Opinions." Whatever I have read concerning gilgul quotes far more from post-Rishonim literature. Whatever interpretations are done on passages in TaNaKh, which are used as support for gilgul, are not very convincing.

I appreciate your bringing forth a source Rabbi Mitterhoff, however, in the context of a doctrine of this nature, Scriptural reference, I believe would be more necessary. The doctrine of the World to Come has basis in TaNaKh, as this also is discussed in "Beliefs and Opinions."

If I hadn't said it already, I will restate it. I do not soundly reject gilgul outright as false for the reason that it has no halakhic status. Gilgul is not mentioned in Hilkhoth Yesodei haTorah as a principle, nor even in Teshuvah, which is even more pertinent. Both of those halakhoth deal with esoteric subjects, some of which may only be touched on once, or very little throuhgout Mishneh Torah.

At the same time, gilgul is not listed in Teshuvah as an alien belief. It is there where unfounded beliefs and teachings of similar gravity are termed and dealt with harshly. My point is not to denigrate belief in the teaching of gilgul, but rather to show that while it is not a fundamental teaching of Torah, neither does it have the halakhic status of assur.

G-d will do what He wills with a person's soul, however, understanding gilgul as a means of identifying and rectifying past wrongs does not seem practical.

Shalom,
Now that we agree to disagree the question remains how can we reconcile these difference of oppion? for without question the Saadia was a mystic as was the Ari, RamBan, RamBam, & Bar Yochai. so perhaps there is somthing we are missing in understanding this?

and if one say that these men are later then the Goan then surely Rabbi Akiva was before the Goan and he came to explain a verse in the Tankh "A generation goes and a generation comes" to mean that "The generation came" it aleady came.

He goes an explains it in a parble which if you wish to hear just ask me for it.

so to raise another question are we to look at these matters of Pardes, tranmigration, reincartion, gehemmonah as different level of the after life each one pending on the judgement handed down to us when we go before the Holy One?

however as i said before these men are Talmud Chachmah so let us figure out away to reconcile this contradiction. which is out of my area of study....

sorry i forgot to place my sources

the sefer of Rabbi nehuniah ben HaKana 121, 122
&
Ecclesiastes 1:4

Makc K, why do you think reconciliation of diametrically opposed views is necessary? Could not one opinion be the correct opinion, and the opposing opinion the incorrect opinion?