this is become a different subject matter so i am going to open one called G-d pressence.

ok since i can not start a new topic here. then i will contuine here though this topic in truth has nothing to do with reincarnation.

we both agree that HaShem does not have any simlance to a body and thus not limited to the concept and charchteristc of a body. our issue is rather: G-d divine pressence is in all things as there is no place void of It, as oppose to G-d dwell in It's palace or as you might call it the spiritual realm.

so then let us take merely the simple meaning of the Rabam teachings and understand what he is saying. which i think we would both agree to is that 1:11 is not the beganing of a thought but rather part of his explination of refuting those who belive that attribute to G_d are actual such as 'He sit on His throne' or 'has a white beard' and the like.

to this we can see that it begans in a sense in 1:9 and it goes through until 1:12 where he states "..expressions in the torah and in the words of the prophets are merely proverbial and figuative" which is that these description mention above of HaShem are merely metaphors.

we do agree on that simple meaning. But I think the idea that G-d being everywhere means that G-d has directions and division , is fairly simple too. If you'd like, why not start antoher discussion in the Torah forum. I would myself right now but it's late in the day, I need to get to bed. I would have written here at lunch time if my computer at work had internet access!

Regarding the prupose of 1:7-1:12, I think he takes it further than just saying the main things about G-d not having a body.
as i wrote

the RAMBAM doesn't say
"G-d doesn't have a body, thus the functions of the body aren't applicable to him"
he says
"He does not have a body or corporeal form, it is also clear that none of the functions of the body are appropriate to him"

So in this way he talks of a G-d without a body and says what G-d isn't concerning this. No directions and can't be divided. I don't think this is reading anything in. RAMBAM's wording is very careful and explicit, and to dismiss the carefullness of the wording would be careless. (I hope I quoted / am using, an accurate translation of the RAMBAM! I am not reading the hebrew - i'm jewish but my hebrew isn't up to scratch!)

Hi, I am doing some reading on the gilgulim and I am trying to see if I understand something.

hopefully somebody can help.

In the Sefer Ba'al Shem Tov, Tisa 9

for those that are bad, will they become worse? Is this saying that the spiritual awakening that opens some to righteous, will also be a opposite effect on those that are "evil" making them preform even more "evil" so to say?

not sure if I understand.

hope this makes sense.

thanks
love
lis

The question that should be asked concerning this issue is what is its relevance to our observance, Jew or Gentile?

From what I understand, the subject, like much of mysticism, has not been a part of the layman's education traditionally. Was the subject of reincarnation even a part of the common man's observance in the Chassidic movement outside those of its leaders?

The case has to be made that knowledge of reincarnation contributes anything significant to the learning and observance of the average person, I include myself. The knowledge and exmaination of past deeds in this life is all that is given to us. Even IF reincarnation of the soul is true, it would have to be shown that it is not an uncommon occurrence, hence a need to be aware of it. More importantly, a means of knowing what deeds were done in a so-called past life logically would be as necessary as the means we have to know our deeds in this life, i.e. our five senses combined with memory and cognition. We have no means at our disposal that is known much less easily accesible to have personal knowledge of things, which took place before our coming into this world.

The rabbis that I trust (who are not mitnagdim BTW) have said that the best way for a beginner to learn is simply to start from the beginning. Start with the Torah, the Prophets and the Writings, and then the Oral Law which is found in summary form in Mishneh Torah. Once one has mastered the Written Law and Oral Law, then he may proceed to the deeper subjects, otherwise, he will be wasting his time and adding confusion.

I will add that it's good and necessary to read the commentaries and shiurim (lessons) and to find rabbinic guidance, but studying subjects that have to do with things after death and other esoteric things beyond what has already been revealed to us and commonly known is not likely to enrich our lives; not for the average person, who hasn't the knowledge and understanding to grasp such things. That is why such things are learned by those, who have already mastered Torah learning.

Hope this helps.


Shalom,
Andy

Hey Andy,

I was just wondering if I was understanding correctly thats all.

Its not that I am spending my time studing on this, however because the conversation had been brought up in the section "the seven laws of Noah", I thought I would at least try to understand what others were refering to.

always love
lis

I apologize if my reply was taken as hard. I know that the subject of reincarnation has become popular, or at least entered the public arena in modern times. This is only a small part of a larger phenomenon of the modern fascination with mysticism. IMO it is unhealthy.

First, we must ask "What is myticism?" In the context of man's primary occupation, to know G-d, "And you shall know it today, and place it on your heart, that HaShem He is G-d in the heaven above and upon the earth beneath; there is no other"(Deut. 4:39), mysticism is knowledge, which is hidden precisely because in man's natural condition, he is unable to grasp the higher knowledge. Without proper training, refining of character, intense study of Torah, awareness in his deeds and reflection and improvement upon them, it is impossible to truly comprehend the higher knowledge of G-d.

An analogy to this would be a 5 year-old, who aspires to become an astronaut. Being weak, immature, and without basic education much less a higher education, it would be foolish, even dangerous for him to attempt to leave earth and launch into space completely and totally unprepared for the obstacles he would face. First, he must master his basic education then advancing on to higher education in high school, college, and finally earning his PhD (usually in astrophysics). During that time, he must develop traits necessary to carrying out a daring mission, such as this - courage, dedication, hard work, leadership, et al. Without these traits, he will endanger himself and anyone involved. Developing these traits is usually accomplished through engaging in various rigors beyond what the average person can or is willing to take on, e.g., military service. He must ultimately proove himself to be suited to fulfilling his dreams of going into space.

How does this compare with learning mysticism? The average person is like the child, immature and unlearned. That is where most of the world's inhabitants find ourselves in respect to the knowldedge and practice of the Divine precepts. Those of us, who follow the path of G-d, are anywhere between merely accepting the tradition of the Sages without much or any understanding and those who have studied the written texts and the oral tradition, and know it be heart. That would be analagous to such people, who are anywhere between having only a grade school education and having a college degree. Those people, who have already mastered the Written and Oral Law, and proceed to delve into the deeper matters are like those, who continue with post-graduate work obtaining their Master's Degrees and PhD's. Their knowledge and deeds make them an example for the rest of us to follow. Beyond those Torah masters, who delve in the deeper matters, are those whose service to G-d is so intense that they desire to be conscious of Him at all times and in every act. Such people are highly spiritually refined beyond the basic refinement of character. They are the ones, who are worthy to receive the secrets that have only been known by a handful from generation to generation. They are astronauts of Torah learning. They have what it takes grasp the higher knowledge of G-d, who is G-d in heaven above. To put a twist on author Tom Wolfe's familiar book title about the astronauts, these people have "the right stuff."

So to take it back to the subject of mysticism in the public arena, we should have enough common sense to know that we are nowhere near a level of moral refinement and knowledge to spend time delving into the kinds of subjects once shared only among Prophets and their personal students. In our time, mysticism is so freely and casually bandied about on the Internet, at Barnes & Nobles, and among entertainers. Someone might be able to tell you what he learned reading the Zohar, but can he recall from memory the plain meanings spelled out in TaNaKh. This is BTW not meant to denigrate such a special and delicate text, but rather as an example of an advanced text that is oft studied and quoted, and is, like many other legitimate Jewish mystical texts, viewed with great desire by the unlearned.

Jewish myticism, while on one hand having the good effect of making people, Gentiles as well as Jews, a little more aware of Torah and mitswoth, has OTOH the appearance of spiritual sensationalism as it is tossed about in the mutltitude of inane verbage of our mass communcation society.

If you've read this far, Lisa, I thank you for your patience. Succinctness is not one of my finer points. You have good intentions and you're eager to learn. That's excellent, and I hope that G-d continues to guide you.

To make it short, my advice to you, as I have learned it from teachers I respect, is to start with the simple things; and not worry about what are truly esoteric matters, even though they appear as common as the mitswoth.

Hey David

I am attempting to write this again, I did something in the middle of a typing and I really don't know what happened, but I lost what I was working on, so if something appears to this thread not finished in writing, please excuse me.

The extent to my post to you was that I totally understand exactly what you are saying and totally respect your thoughts and views on the whole subject.

Before I found myself craving the Jewish religion, there was a time in my search and studies where I was pointing out to practicing "catholics" the way they intepret verses in the bible were not the way they were written and how many of their "mysticism" teachings and beliefs were against the Word of Hashem, from at least the way I read it.

So in reality, There is no difference in this situation as in the previous situation that I was in as well at one time. Although perhaps in that situation the mysticism was more in your face as opposed to just a hidden thought of understanding.

Personally I am still stuck on the desire of understanding of the laws and by now I guess a lot of you already know my thoughts on Idolatry.

like I had mentioned before, I guess when the subject had been brought up in this section, seeing honestly that there are many subjects that come up that I am so unlearned on, first thought and action is usally well, what are these people talking about and is this something that I am supposed to be aware of?
Granted there is many things I have no clue about, just going to take it with a grain of salt!

always love
lisa

I am sorry Lisa i do not have the Sefer Baal Shem Tov before me. It isn't that your being ingored. so I don't know.

there is a good book which tell us the laws within each weekly parsha and goes to explain them. "Sefer HaChinnuch" (the book of mitzvah education) the rabbi wrote it for his son and his friend so that on shabbats they would learn the laws of the torah. it is five volumes in all.

each of us are unlearn in different subject matter and that is i think the reason for the site so that we can all learn somthing.

as well Andy reincarnation was part of layman learning to what degree depends on the teacher. however there is no question that stories of reincaration was known by the common person of Chassidus.

the revlance to know about these concept is so that when they araise you at least can say weather it exist or not. and that it is not a forigne practice as avadah zara.

the Minshnah TOrah in Talmud Torah talks about the order in which one is to learn Torah and progress however for those who are baal Tshuva or convert can not go by the same measure. thus it is good if they have a set time for study. the weekly portion of the torah, sefer Hachinnuch (covers the laws and the reasoning), and set a little time for Chassidus or Midrash Rabbah.

Thanks Mac

Andy, Im sorry, I called you David, I apoligize I was going to fix the mistake, but was unable to edit my post...

love
lis

quote:

Originally posted by Lisa:
Hey David

I am attempting to write this again, I did something in the middle of a typing and I really don't know what happened, but I lost what I was working on, so if something appears to this thread not finished in writing, please excuse me.

Hi Lisa, you might want to try writing your replies in a word processing program like Microsoft Word then copying what you have there into the reply box of that which you are replying to.

There is a question in which does Reincarnation exist within Judaism? To this effect the answer is yes it does to a degree. nothing more I can think to say on this matter other then what has been said on all side of the camps earlier posts.

as you mention there are 613 mitzvot. it is not a matter of fulfilling all 613 mitzvot that one need concern themselves with, but rather fulfill all the mitzvots which apply to them. example since i am not a women i need not concern myself with the mitzvot dealing with women etc.

to fulfill G-d command weather by rote or by some other rational is better then one who does not do it at all. for we are only commanded to do them and nothing more.

what is this compare to as you state: The Beganing of Wisdom is the fear of G-d. this is like a servent to serve their master for the sake of recieve a reward. and what is the opposite this is the commandment to Love the L-rd your G-d. for in this we fulfill soley to do the will of our maker. this is like a serevent who serve their master not for the sake of a reward. and such is the one who does it by rote for they do it because G-d commands them and for no other reason.

This is a reply to the note posted by Davidt. I think you may be slightly misinformed. There are countless sources for the infinity of G-d's Presence. We say in Kedusha His honor fills the world. Chassidus does in fact refer to G-d as Or Ein Sof that is because his essence is limitless and endless. I think you must be careful when you say that G-d's infinity being everywhere is a newfound concept dawned upon by the Chassidim of the 1700's. If you do have sources for what you say please list them so I can Check them up and clarify this situation.

Secondly, as to the original question dealing with the contradiction to the fact that G-d is infinite how can we say he has a left or right or up or down etc... We know trhroughout the seforim both in the nigle (revealed Torah) and especially in Nistar (hidden secrets of Torah) there are physical references attributed to G-d. We know that Hashem Puts on Tefillin in favt in His Shel Rodh it is writtenh who is like your nation Israel the only nation on earth (Gemara Berachos) However the seforim talk this way so we as physical beings can relate to it. The Baal Hatanya writes regarding Schar V'oesh (reward and punnishment) that the world is of the opinion that one who has more mitzvos than aveiros is a tzaddik, one with equal mitzvos and aveiros is a beinoni (intermediate) and one who has more aveiros than mitzvos is a Rasha. The Alter Rebbe comments that this is only set out like this to allow us a point of comprehension. It is in the same manner with the physical attributes of G-d. Certainly one of the 13 Principles of Faith is that G-d has no body or any bodily form or function and now image at all. In fact these concepts are much deeper and esoteric than the physical but the only way in which we can relate to these concepts is on a physical level.

The references to up-down, hands, feet sight etc are all parables "handles" to help us tiny mortals with our so very limited cabalilities of understanding vastness, infinity, spiritual/energy being.

As for the discussions of Rav Saadia Gaons seeming rejection of the reincarnation tenet on emust remember 2 all important aspects of him. [1] He was influenced heavily by the arab philosophers of his time, he was a philosopher, a man who insisted that he had to be able to logicaly understand an idea in order to accept it. It is taught that if one relies on his intellect alone or mainly than one is bound to falter.
[2] We MUST remember the time place he lived in. Islam rejects out of hand reincarnation, any one going against any item that Islam has a strong stand agaisnt is endangering his life. Then as now. If he had dared to speak or write in favor of reincarnation he would have been a dead man very quickly and would have endangered the community as well. NOTE: He is not tthe only great Rabbi who was suchly silenced. The Gemara was censored in the middle ages because the church was upset that passages in it proved the faslehood of their tenets. ditto RaMbaM's Hilkhoth Melakhim.
I and others are sure that had he received the knowledge and had he been free to express it he would have most likely been in favor.
Shabbat Shalom

good day to all,i want to reply to a statement i did read,getting the heart to feel what the mind know,s to be true.nor mind nor feeling(as in human should take control of the heart but the heart should control them.when jezus christ was asked if they should build a temple for g-d
he answered NO this is your temple with his hand on his heart,so by kicking out the money exchangers in the outer temple,he really said
that money should not have a place in the inner temple the heart.woman are safed by unconditional love they experienced for thier children,so not mind but unconditional love
is what must be radiated out,after having named
the animals by thier true name and so have power over them instead of them having power over you,then and only then can you enter the temple,and learn to see and hear.

this ofcourse is the story of the raven and the dove,the ark and it,s 3 layers or decs and the animals male and female are the 3 worlds: mental physical and spiritual,these 3 are fully
explained in the Thora3/5 and reveals the truckture of the LAW.
moshiya de broek.

quote:

Originally posted by Rav Yaakovi Bar-Nahman:

As for the discussions of Rav Saadia Gaons seeming rejection of the reincarnation tenet on emust remember 2 all important aspects of him. [1] He was influenced heavily by the arab philosophers of his time, he was a philosopher, a man who insisted that he had to be able to logicaly understand an idea in order to accept it. It is taught that if one relies on his intellect alone or mainly than one is bound to falter.
[2] We MUST remember the time place he lived in. Islam rejects out of hand reincarnation, any one going against any item that Islam has a strong stand agaisnt is endangering his life. Then as now. If he had dared to speak or write in favor of reincarnation he would have been a dead man very quickly and would have endangered the community as well. NOTE: He is not tthe only great Rabbi who was suchly silenced. The Gemara was censored in the middle ages because the church was upset that passages in it proved the faslehood of their tenets. ditto RaMbaM's Hilkhoth Melakhim.
I and others are sure that had he received the knowledge and had he been free to express it he would have most likely been in favor.
Shabbat Shalom

Except, Saadia Gaon was not silent on reincarnation. He unequivocally denounced it; and he provided logical arguments that it's a false doctrine.

I could understand a Rabbi staying SILENT to protect himself and others. But I can't fathom a Rabbi deliberately writing a passionate and argumentative DENUNCIATION of something he knows to be actually true! If so, how could we ever trust our Rabbis? Someone could always claim the Rabbi meant the opposite of what he actually said, leaving us in chaotic ignorance of what is Truth and what is False.

Here are Saadia Gaon's own words. Please if anyone can explain to me with a convincing argument, do you really think Saadia Gaon was lying?

quote:

“Yet, I must say that I have found certain people, who call themselves Jews, professing the doctrine of metempsychosis (reincarnation) which is designated by them as the theory of “transmigration” of souls. What they mean thereby is that the spirit of Ruben is transferred to Simon and afterwards to Levi and after that to Judah. Many of them would go so far as to assert that the spirit of a human being might enter into the body of a beast or that of a beast into the body of a human being, and other such nonsense and stupidities.”

“This in itself, however, indicates how very foolish they are. For they take it for granted that the body of a man is capable of transforming the essence of the soul so as to make of it a human soul, after having been the soul of a beast. They assume, furthermore, that the soul itself is capable of transforming the essence of a human body to the point of endowing it with the traits of the beasts, even though its form be that of men. It was not sufficient for them, then, that they attributed to the soul a variable nature by not assigning to it an intrinsic essence, but they contradicted themselves when they declared the soul capable of transforming and changing the body, and the body capable of transforming and changing the soul. But such reasoning is a deviation from logic.

The third [argument they present] is in the form of a logical argument. They say, namely: “Inasmuch as the Creator is just, it is inconceivable that he should occasion suffering to little children, unless it be for sins committed by their souls during the time that they were lodged in their former bodies.” This view is, however, subject to numerous refutations.

The first is that they have forgotten what we have mentioned on the subject of compensation in the hereafter for misfortunes experienced in this world. Furthermore we should like to ask them what they conceive the original status of the soul to be – we mean its status when it is first created. Is it charged by its Master with any obligation to obey Him or not? If they allege that it is not so charged, then there can be no punishments for it either, since it was not charged with any obligations to begin with. If, on the other hand, they acknowledge the imposition of such a charge, in which case obedience and disobedience did not apply before, they thereby admit that God charges His servants with obligations on account of the future and not at all on account of the past. But then they return to our theory and are forced to give up their insistence on the view that man’s suffering in this world is due solely to his conduct in a previous existence.”

~ Saadia Gaon
“The Book of Beliefs and Opinions”
Yale Judaica Series, Vol. I “The Soul” ch. VIII pp 259

Its not just Saddia Gaon that rejects the idea of reincarnation. The Torah itself says nothing about it; in fact the Torah makes clear that the dead are quite dead.

Many rabbis rejected the idea of reincarnation, such as Hasdai Crescas, Yedayah Bedershi (early 14th century), Joseph Albo, Abraham ibn Daud and Leon de Modena.

Hasdai Crescas writes that if reincarnation was real, people should remember details of their previous lives. But they don't, and those that make such claims can never prove it.

Bedershi offers three reasons why the entire concept is dangerous:

(a) There is no reason for people to try and do good in this life, if they fear that they will nonetheless be punished for some unknown sin committed in a past life.

(b) Some people may assume that they did not sin in their past life, and so can coast on their success; thus there is no need to try hard to live a good life. In Bedershi's view, the only psychologically tenable worldview for a healthy life is to deal with the here-and-now.

(c) The idea presents a conundrum for those who believe that at the end of days, God will resurrect the souls and physical bodies of the dead. If a person has lived multiple lives, which body will God resurrect?

Rabbi Joseph Albo writes that in theory the idea of gilgulim is compatible with Jewish theology. However, Albo argues that there is a purpose for a soul to enter the body, creating a being with free will. However, a return of the soul to another body, again and again, has no point.

Leon De Modena thinks that the idea of reincarnation make a mockery of God's plans for humans; why does God need to send the soul back over and over? If God requires an individual to achieve some perfection or atone for some sin, then God can just extend that person's life until they have time to do what is necessary.

de Modena's second argument against reincarnation is that the entire concept is absent from the entire Bible and corpus of classical rabbinic literature.

RobNE

Since as the Arbarnel (15th cent), who supports reincarnation, points out that the soul actions are determinined by the nature of the body, one can't hold one responsible for what happened in a different body. However, the antagonism to reincarnation stems from the more extreme forms, that people are reincarnated as animals and inanimate objects which is brought by the Chafetz Chaim (19th cent.) in his Shimerat Lashon. Since Saadiah Goan (10th) specifically called this heresy, and even the Arbarbanel wont buy it, I object as it leads into a world that reincarnation becomes an essential doctrine of Judiasm, e.g. Yerach Dvashim (R. Eibshitz, 18th)As mention, if HaShem thought it to be so important he would have mentioned it in the Bible or Oral law someplace.

I would appreciate a citation from the Rambam where is specifically refutes reincarnation. Since Plato (not the Hindus) is the basis for our belief in reincartion, I presume he rejected it since he doesn't even start with the Neoplatonism.

Aryeh Shore

Aryeh,

Well, here is the quote that may have caused all the upheaval:

http://studentorgs.utexas.edu/cjso/Chabad/moshiach/techiya-masim.html

# Belief in the existence of the Creator, be He Blessed, who is perfect in every manner of existence and is the Primary Cause of all that exists.
# The belief in G-d's absolute and unparalleled unity.
# The belief in G-d's noncorporeality, nor that He will be affected by any physical occurrences, such as movement, or rest, or dwelling.
# The belief in G-d's eternity.
# The imperative to worship Him exclusively and no foreign false gods.
# The belief that G-d communicates with man through prophecy.
# The belief that the prophecy of Moses our teacher has priority.
# The belief in the divine origin of the Torah.
# The belief in the immutability of the Torah.
# The belief in divine omniscience and providence.
# The belief in divine reward and retribution.
# The belief in the arrival of the Messiah and the messianic era.
# The belief in the resurrection of the dead.

However, there is a difference between resurrection and reincarnation. And that is the key to the understanding of the whole thing. Rambam does not speak about routine transmigration of souls from man to woman to man to bird, etc. he is talking about the phenomenon of resurrection, which implies transition of the soul to another world - until the arrival of the Mashiach.

(Unless I am missing something...)

Here is some more of an overview:

http://www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm