"Rabbi Jacob said: If a man was walking by the way and studying and he ceased his study and said "how fine is this tree" or " how fine is the ploughed field!" the scripture reckons it to him as he was guilty against his own soul" - now when i was reading this i had chills up and down my body, because i could relate to this man, i've thought i lot about this sage and tried to come up with what is meant with it, however i have made some conclusion but i dont feel im correct, and maybe i am. If someone could comment on the above i would appreciate it.

i belive it is that you should not be abstracted from the study of torah(or general) just because ones surroundings can implicate it. i dont feel this is an adequate answer from my side....I did come up with a lot of other points but i dont want to take your time with all my questions.
bear over with my ignorance
Waiting for some help,

Shalom,
a humble student... David aron

The explanation may be that though when one admires a beautiful tree, one is really admiring God who created it. This can bring us to Love and Fear of God which is surely a great achievement, but in fact it's a sin when it diverts one from the study of Torah. The reason being, because the level one attains by the study of Torah is infinitely greater than any other mitzvah including Love of God.
Thats why the halacha is that one may not leave ones study of Torah to observe another mitzvah [unless it's a mitzva that will be lost if it's not observed within its time-frame].
The Maharal commenting on the passage(Mishlei 6) "for Mitzvah is a flame [of a candle] and Torah is a light" a mitzvah is an action done by the body, therefore it is compared to a flame which needs the wick and the vessel containing the oil to ignite. Torah on the other-hand is pure light since it is'nt dependent on any physical means for its performance because it is accomplished solely by the mind.

Shalom Shmuel,

Thanks for the very detailed explanation. I asked a Rabbi yesterday and he gave me the same answer, it all seems very logic when I look at the answer.

Todah Rabbah!!!

David Aron

quote:

Originally posted by David/Daud Aron Seer:
"Rabbi Jacob said: If a man was walking by the way and studying and he ceased his study and said "how fine is this tree" or " how fine is the ploughed field!" the scripture reckons it to him as he was guilty against his own soul" -

Dear David,
I guess you aren't looking for a technical answer but here goes anyway.
The perush ascribed to Rashi and the second perush in the Machzor Vitri suggest that the problem with stopping learning torah in the road is that mazikim may hurt him (those devilish little things that haunt deserted places) or that he should be paying attention to the road, which were very dangerous in those time, rather than looking at trees. That is why is life is endangered. As for interupting torah learning to do something else like a mitzveh, is pretty much limited to the bet midrash. We just aren't on the level of the previous generations and since the middle ages we say gesundheit when someone sneezes. However, this being said, there is another concept of being bitul limud of the bet medresh. I don't think it is beyond the capacities of the average yeshiva student not to have everyday conversations or comments within the walls of the bet medresh.

Aryeh Shore

I have nothing of merit to add here. I am still struggling with this matter myself and from a number of different angles/cases. But I would like to say that I am glad this topic has been brought up and I have been very appreciative of the discussion. Thank you all.

Rosemary

Dear Aryeh,

Thank you very much, this is exactly the answer I was looking for, how to deal with in in our contemporary time. Your right that it must be beyond the average student not to talk about everyday conversation, but we(i do) strive to correct ourselves.

There was a situation at the university, where we had a discuss-G-d-Day, now we had to participate or we would be noted as not appearing for class, but not to my suprise the discussion developed to a disgrace as people started making parodies and jokes about Hashem. It is a public university so therefore, the secularism allows this to be "freedom", personally I left the gathering(with good manner), to show my disgust at their behaviour.

Well that was just a litte anecdote, which I relate to my question, I know that it is a different situation from B.midrash, but I think that my conscience shouldn't rely on where I am...

Well, Thanks for the technical answer it has been noted, and thanks for taking your time to explain me.

a humble student,

Shalom,

David

shalom David - I am a Torah based environmental educator in the USA - I use that Mishnah as my hakdama to Torah based environmental education - you may ask what's so terrible about what he did as to warrant him essentially (K'ilu) forfeiting his life (BTW the mishnah refers to a posuk but doesn't say which one! see the GR"A) The Baal Shem Tove has a beautiful "chap" on the mishneh - "umafsik mishnaso" he has a hefsek - in that he fails to see the connection between the Torah and the world and thinks C"V that they are distinct entities (which leads to pantheism and panentheism) so when we have a not-frum group come up to the farm, we try to give them a taste of Torah "inside" to allow them to remake that conncetion. Conversely, when we have a bunch of yeshiva bochrim, we try to stress the nature aspects to append them to what they've learnt in Yeshiva (we stress teaching hilchos shabbos it's a chance for the bochrim to see the melachos as they actually appear) one group of charedi came up to the farm for a day - I told the rosh yeshive and rebbeim to chazzer hilchos shabbos, especially muktzeh and tzeida with the boys. At the end of the day I asked the rosh yeshiva how we did he said "candidly, I wasn't too crzay about the chassidus but you know your nigleh" now thats a compliment! good luck and good shabbos
Rabbi Shmuel Simenowitz

quote:

Originally posted by David/Daud Aron Seer:
"Rabbi Jacob said: If a man was walking by the way and studying and he ceased his study and said "how fine is this tree" or " how fine is the ploughed field!" the scripture reckons it to him as he was guilty against his own soul" - [...] David aron

I would first make a small but important correction to the translation. The man here was "mafsik" from his learning... he interrupted his learning, not stopped. That is, he looked at learning and appreciating the beauty of the world as incompatible activities.

I would like to suggest a few ways to understand this mishna. First, when Chazal refer to a person traveling, it is understood that he is in a situation that requires constant vigilance. It is no surprise that a person who is driving and takes his hand off the wheel to look around out the scenary is putting "guilty against his life"; when you are driving, you need to pay attention to what you are doing every moment or you risk your life. Similarly, a person in this world must maintain constant vigilance. We forget sometimes that we are travelers in this world and "driving" our bodies. Chazal are reminding us that every moment requires our attention. We don't have the luxury of taking our hands off the steering wheel.

So then you will ask, what is wrong with appreciating HaShem's creation? The answer, of course, is ... nothing is wrong with appreciating *HaShem* for the beautiful world He provides to us on a constant basis. In fact, that is *precisely* what learning is... I have heard it put like this: when you are praying, you are talking to HaShem; when you are learning, HaShem is talking to you. So, if one uses the world also to appreciate HaShem, that is truly just continuing his learning... I hear HaShem in the gemara, in halacha, in mussar; and I also hear HaShem from appreciating His world. However, this person was "mafsik" (interrupted) that process of appreciating and listening to HaShem. He saw the beauty of the tree and field as something other than another aspect of HaShem's abounding love for us. But a person who sees appreciating the beauty of world as incompatible with appreciating HaShem has missed the point. If he is not "getting it", he risks being taken out of it.

Finally (for now), there is a third way to understantd this misha. The Ramchal, in M'silas Yesharim (The Path of the Just), reminds us that every moment of our lives is an opportunity for our perfection. A person who wastes a moment has given up a glorious opportunity... and therefore showed that he does not appreciate the life the HaShem has given him. If a person doesn't appreciate each moment of life, he obviously risks being given more opportunities. If one uses the world to turn away from HaShem, then HaShem may remove us from this world to protect us.

In summary, R' Yaakov has taught us that we are active participants in running our lives, and we do not have the option of "taking a break" as long as we are alive. He has also taught us that part of our job is to use this world to see and appreciate HaShem. Additionally, he has taught us the tremendous power of each moment... that each moment is worth a whole lifetime.

I hope you will accept my humble contribution to your query, David. It is offered with respect for your intelligence; regardless it is from one considered an apikoris [yet one who reveres his heritage with like passion]. To this Hebrew, the act of pausing in one's Torah study to appreciate the handiwork of Nature, is to realize one's own unique quality of being. It is the binding tie between his humanity, and that sentience which allows the mind to be more than that of the instinctive animal from which he springs. Without this ability to recognize the environment which surrounds him, a human being is no more than an automaton buried in wisdom, but less human in that he cannot be one with the music of Creation - the symphony of Life. I study Torah, and hear the melody of trees bending in the wind; together they weave the melody of the soul unseen, and the Creative Force unknown. With respect.

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Home

Bravo, Harvey Freilich! My instinct is to agree with you totally. Even if we don't go with instinct but with Shmuel Kessler's explanation, I still think G-d must give us SOME room for our humanity. Granted, admiring G-d's handiwork in nature does not improve our souls as does studying His Torah; however, is the former actually a SIN? Even if it occurs while studying, that is hard to believe. If you'll be patient with me, I have an analogy: I home-school my young daughter. If I am teaching her some very important academic subject matter, and she puts her hand to my cheek and says, "Mommy, you have such soft skin," could I be mad? If she did it again and again purposefully as a distraction, yes, but otherwise, no. G-d is our Father just as surely as I am my daughter's mother, and surely He must feel warm inside when we appreciate EVERY aspect of what He has given us.
To be fair, I have continued my thinking on this, and here is something else I have come up with: When I stop to admire nature, it is usually on a walk taken only for the purpose of walking - when my mind is empty. When I have happened to be walking while thinking about a truly important issue, I don't think I have ever been distracted by nature. Perhaps the "sin" in the case being discussed is that, if our minds were truly ON the important issues in the Torah, we could not BE distracted.
Yes, I guess I can see both points. I still think, however, that as long as the person interrupted goes back to his studies and understands what is more important, it cannot be considered a major sin. Humans have many weaknesses, but I don't think that appreciating nature is a weakness for which G-d gets terribly angry! In other words, if inadvertantly interrupting Torah study to admire nature IS a sin, it is probably not a big one in G-d's eyes.
How's THAT for a compromise???

Talking of Nature's song! My what a lovely melody you play with your words. I'm proud of you in your motherhood, and your humanity. How much more the appreciation of a Creator for a creature of His design recognizing, not only His Wisdom, but the canvas of the environment created by His Will. Such is the Love and Lesson of the Father - Teacher. Your daughter is one lucky girl; with you as her mentor and mother, she cannot fail to grow straight in the path of tolerance and understanding. My respect.

quote:

Originally posted by Harvey Freilich:
I hope you will accept my humble contribution to your query, David. It is offered with respect for your intelligence; regardless it is from one considered an apikoris [yet one who reveres his heritage with like passion]. To this Hebrew, the act of pausing in one's Torah study to appreciate the handiwork of Nature, is to realize one's own unique quality of being. [...] I study Torah, and hear the melody of trees bending in the wind; together they weave the melody of the soul unseen, and the Creative Force unknown. With respect.

Harvey... in what sense are you an apikoris? Calling oneself a "Hebrew" now a days has some bad connotations that perhaps you did not intend? Also... are you disagreeing with the Tanna of our Mishna? You seem to be saying that interrupting learning to appreciate nature is a good thing, even though R' Yaakov tells us it is a capitol offense. However beautiful a sentiment may seem, it must always and only be tested and viewed through the eyes of our Holy Torah as explained by our revered sages. Our sages are never giving us their opinion, rather they are explaining HaShem's thoughts to us. If we disagree with them, it is us who must change; not, G-d Forbid, our Holy Torah as explained and expressed by our revered sages of blessed memory.

I agree. How could anyone say it is a good thing when the mishna says "the scripture reckons it to him as he was guilty against his own soul". I don't get it.

Sin is really a relative term depending on the level of the person and his actions. In last weeks parasha we find that Hashem accuses Moshe of commiting a sin for not sanctifying his name in the episode of the "mei merivo". For us it's very hard to understand exactly what Moshe was guilty of, which caused him to die before Am Yisroel entered Eretz Yisroel.
Likewise one should follow his instincts and admire and love the handiwork of Hashem and sing his praise like the sweet singer of Israel, Dovid Hamelech.
But we should get our priorities in order. The study of Torah is the centerpiece of a Jew and nothing should divert us from it. If we do interrupt our study to admire nature that is considered a sin to the level of nearness to Hashem that is attained by the study of Torah.
If I may be excused I'd like to offer a personal explanation to this Mishnah.
Firstly we can ask, why the Tanna emphasizes the that one was "was walking on a way"? The same interruption to the study of Torah can occur in the privacy of ones study when one admires a beautiful view through the window while studying.
The harshness of the punishment is out of proportion to the actual sin. In fact, "mischayev benafsho" is nothing less than a death sentence.
We can say that here where one is traveling alone he is in constant danger [that's why we pray the Tefillat Haderech].
Chazal say that if one travels alone without an escort [traveling with an escort is a "shemirah"]one should study Torah [because the Torah itself is a "shemirah"].
Therefore if there is an interruption in our "shemirah" which is the Torah we are really endangering ourselves in a physical way.
Harvey, you should'nt label yourself in such a negative way. We all love to hear the song of nature, but as Paulette rightly pointed out, when your really preoccupied with something important nothing else is noticed.

Michael asks: "Harvey... in what sense are you an apikoris? Calling oneself a "Hebrew" now a days has some bad connotations that perhaps you did not intend?"
Rabbi Mitterhoff responds: "I agree. How could anyone say it is a good thing when the mishna says "the scripture reckons it to him as he was guilty against his own soul". I don't get it."
And finally, Shmuel replies: "Harvey, you should not label yourself in such a negative way. We all love to hear the song of nature, but as Paulette rightly pointed out, when you're really preoccupied with something important nothing else is noticed."

I am truly humbled and appreciative of your responses to my last submission. I shall try to answer your curiosity for my reply by confusing you even further. I do not mean to be, or sound malicious, but my soul has been in turmoil from childhood over religious rhetoric, religious perspectives, and religious ethnicity. I am an apikoris, because I am an Hebrew, as was my Father, Abraham. I am an apikoris because I was taught that my tribal roots cleave to Levi and Israel; not Judah and Benjamin. I am an apikoris, because I have spent my entire life, from the moment I heard the word, Torah, as a professed atheist, and, in my heart, for good reason, I have fought my peers and detractors, that G_D is not, and that Torah, like all religious teaching, is anathema to Humanity!
Before you call upon the Angel of Vengeance to silence my blasphemy, judge my motive; then condemn as you will...
No one loves his people, his heritage, or his historical ethnicity more than I. I am Abraham in the Valley of Siddim; I am David, out to confront Goliath of Gath. I am Saul at the head of his Hebrew army, I am Samson wielding the jaw-bone of an ass upon the Philistine. I am Deborah plunging a tent-peg, I am Moses standing before Korah, I am Daniel in the den, Shadrach, Meshach, and Apednigo in the furnace, I am Bar Kochba, and Dayan, and Begin; I am Hebrew!
The "sages," as you call them, insist that being an Hebrew marks you as one "from the other side; from across the river, from idol worship to monothism." Abraham, they will say, is Hebrew [or an Ivri/Ibri] because a) he is of Ever/Eber b) he has "crossed over," or c) he is of the Habiru/apiru. Since I have never agreed with the sages; especially Rashi, I knew very early on that my road would be a lonely one. I have written reams on this little disagreement in terminology-seemingly an exercise in semantics, but deeper by far than any lexicography pit of language ever dug by man, and as briefly as I can, this is what I have learned...about our past: At Gen. 14:13, Abram is identified as an Hebrew. The redactor of his time knows full well what that means - I believe we {I should say: "they", the "sages"} do not!
In the same sentence as Abram's Hebrew identity, is a term for how one sits on the land ['shaochane']; note the redactor's choice at Gen. 13:18 for the manner by which Abram [the un-identified Hebrew] dwells or sits [yawshab]. Something has changed with Abram's identification as "the Hebrew." It appears to me that, in this case, and others like it, that a Hebrew identification is similar to the general appellation of the term, "goor;" in that it marks the bearer as an alien sojourner, and especially with Abraham's Hebrew identity, one of sojourning specificity [in a displaced sense].
Other Hebrews; so-called are: Joseph, Jacob, Moses, the slaves of Goshen, the soldiers of Saul, Jonah, and Saul of Tarsus called, "Paul," who insists that he is not a "Jew of the Jews" [the correct vernacular of his day], but rather, "a Hebrew of the Hebrews!" All of these are displaced sojourners from their original homes. Now comes that fateful moment in Hebrew history, where the ten secede from the twelve, and establish their reidency in, and about Samaria. These are the Hebrew Samarians under the kingdom-banner of "Israel." The two remaining tribes of Judah and Benjamin residing in, and about Jerusalem "nationalize" themselves to become the "Yehudim;" the "Jews." The year is 735 B.C.E. [not 586 B.C.E. as the sages suggest]. Note the Syro-Ephraimite conflicts of 735-721 B.C.E., especially 2nd Kings 16:6. All of these participants, up until the destruction of Israel [the collective], are known to be the Hebrew Children of Israel [Jacob]. After 721 B.C.E. the surviving remnant of Judah and Benjamin [the "Jews" collectively] maintain their national "Jewish" identity, and absorb any straggler peasantry remaining from the Assyrian Diaspora into this newly created "Jewish" society as Hebrew bondservants [see Jer. 34].
If the Hebrew term is found throughout the Pentateuch, why do the sages continue to "read back" Jewish terminology into that Hebrew past? Abraham is not the first Jew; he is the first Hebrew. Moses did not lead the Jews through the waters; he led the Hebrews. The Philistines recognized Saul's army as an Hebrew army, not a Jewish one. Yes; I am interested in hearing the sages' "take" on why Hebrews are constantly identified as Jews in an errant chronological sense. Why is the term, Hebrew missing from the Book of Joshua, and rampant in the Books of Samuel? Why is the Hebrew term not to be found in the Dead Sea Scrolls of Qumran? To me, being Hebrew is the pride of my ancestral heritage; why is it not emphasized when rendering Scriptural Parshas? What is wrong with being recognized by a name familiar to the Creator [Gen. "...tell them the G_D of the Hebrews hath met with us!"].
As a student of Torah in my youth, these arguments fell upon deaf ears. As an atheist apikoris, they seem to intrigue the sages. They also catch the attention of dictionary and encyclopedia publishers who, over the years, and at my insistence, have corrected the errant mind set that allows for copy such as the Passover commemorating the liberation of the Jews, rather than the Hebrew Children of Israel. It is not a question of semantics; it is history! Finally, if you ever leaf through the new Oxford Dictionary of the English Language [3rd ed.], you'll find the correct definition with my name as the Judaica contributor who rightfully defined our most Holy Days of Awe, and the participants who were our ancestors in that event. All Jews are Hebrews, but not all Hebrews became Jews.
Now, to the present: How can such dialogue or dialectic benefit our people? What good can such a seemingly semantic argument portend for the good of our nation, or our children? Have you forgotten the Pogroms, the Holocausts, the ethnic hatred, the intolerant prejudice against the Jew? How many have you heard call for the extermination of the Hebrews? How many "kill the dirty Jews!" have you heard as opposed to "kill the dirty Hebrews!" Michael remarked that the Hebrew term "...nowadays has a bad connotation!" Really! As opposed to what? the Jews? What is the present Talmudic perspective regarding Hebrew and Jewish terminology? I'd really like to know, and more, I'd really like someone to tell me why it's wrong to rightfully call my ancient ancestor by the identity even his G_D recognized him to be: an Hebrew! With the utmost respect.....
Harvey Freilich

OK, but how do you read the mishna that states "the scripture reckons it to him as he was guilty against his own soul" It cannot be something good.

Shalom Everyone,

"Rabbi Yaakov said, one who is walking along the road and is studying [Torah], and then interrupts his studies and says, 'How beautiful is this tree! How beautiful is this plowed field!', the Scripture considers it as if he bears the guilt for his own soul."


First and foremost I would like to thank everyone for contributing to understand the points about the Sage, when I posted it I didnt think that it would lead to such a discussion, so I have been thinking and talking to my local Rabbi, and I must admit that you all have some good points in your replies. Thanks for sharing you knowledge and wisdom with me, It is deeply appreciated.

However I would like to say that we cannot argue that the Mishna discusses the severity of interrupting one's Torah study, even for an activity as worthy as admiring nature. Rashi adds that this is of particular concern when one is traveling and is exposed to the dangers of the wild. In such a situation Torah study insures Divine protection, and if a person does not avail himself of this protection, "he bears the guilt for his own soul." As Rabbi Mitterhoff & Shmuel Kessler already have pointed, can this be argued? I dont believe so.

Futhermore I believe that what we learn from this is that we have an obligation to thank G-d for the beauty He has placed in the world. Fx. upon seeing beautiful trees or fields we recite the blessing "...who has such in His universe."

Nature is one of the world's most powerful creations for recognizing G-d, However, the subject in our mishna was appreciating G-d in an even greater and more inspiring manner.

Well, to conclude my point, I believe that there certainly is a place in our life for the study and appreciation of nature, but we have to remeber the Source and Creator behind this, because this will create a greater appreciation of His might and Majesty. The Sages exhort us to admire the beauty of the world, but constantly remind us to direct that admiration towards G-d, because he is the One who has such in His universe. By the nature we see His world, but only by Torah we are enabled to perceive Him.

If I have offended anyone then I must say that it hasnt been the intention.
And again I would like to thank you ALL, it has been very learnful.

Todah Rabbah !

Chaver Shelach,

David Aron Seer.

Shmuel Chaim, where is that farm you are teaching at?

Wow! What an interesting discussion: I wish I had joined it earlier...

I have a couple of questions. Does Rabbi Yaakov say where "the Scripture reckons it to him as he was guilty against his own soul"?

Second. "If a man was walking by the way and studying and he ceased his study and said "how fine is this tree" or " how fine is the ploughed field!" the scripture reckons it to him as he was guilty against his own soul".

Walking by "the way" said by a Chazal usually implies The Way, walking by the way means walking along the path of learning Torah. It is not to be interpreted as taking a tea break, --interrupting-- the studies and looking out the window, but as --ceasing-- the studies to admire the tree or ploughed field.

I am sure our Sages did take time off their studies to eat, drink, sleep, have sex, go to the bathroom, look at the trees, fields, and cities around them. And I am sure many had the appreciation of the beauty of the material world, not only of the texts of the Scriptures.

What I think R" Yaakov refers to is quitting the learning of Torah in favor of gazing and being awed at the nature and not at Hashem. Such man would be "guilty against his own soul"...

First, we should take note that it doesn't say he is Chayav Missa- worthy of a death penalty. I feel that the true meaning is that even as there is great service in praising the Creator BBH for His wondrous creation He prepared or us, it is yet miniscule in comparison to one who is amidst cleaving to the Torah- reviewing Mishnayos, saying a Dvar Torah, sharing views in Haskofah, giving a sevorah to explain a Tosefos or quoting a stanza of Shaagas Aryeh. The aura shared by one cleaving to the Torah and being specially connected to hashem with the words of Torah have no worldly comparison. One can lose his appetite, be satiated alone from the light of the Torah. Therefore, one who stops- even though he may be praising Hashem, but his soul has lost out on the aura of the Torah which he could have had, which is a level in itself, as the Maharal says that aside from the order of nature, there exists for Clal Yisroel the order of the Torah