Hi,

Can someone enlighten me why is that as soon as summer starts aproahing women start to walk around as naked as possible? I would have thought that since women want to be viewed as equals to men they would not find it so important to walk around so obviousily as an object?

quote:

Originally posted by YossiSmith:
Hi,

Can someone enlighten me why is that as soon as summer starts aproahing women start to walk around as naked as possible? I would have thought that since women want to be viewed as equals to men they would not find it so important to walk around so obviousily as an object?

Yossi,

Can you enlighten me why is it that as soon as a woman starts to wear less covering you find it so important to view her as an object as opposed to a person, a human?

Both are valid points:
I do find it difficult to understand why women (goyim) resent (quite loudly) being viewed as objects, and scream if they are viewed as such, and then don "clothing" that precisely objectifies them.

i.e. wearing what a woman of the night would wear while advertising.

looks like a duck...talks like a duck...

Nope, a duck at least has got feathers...

ha-ha-ha!
Seriusly, it does tend to amaze me that other Jews are still really and genuinely shocked by what happens inthe secular world. I am rarely shocked by sinners--disgusted, but not shocked...that is what sinners DO. They sin. They are continually thinking of NEW ways to sin. Because they are sinners. What else would a sinner do?

quote:

Originally posted by Yocheved Broscova-Guerra:
ha-ha-ha!
Seriusly, it does tend to amaze me that other Jews are still really and genuinely shocked by what happens inthe secular world. I am rarely shocked by sinners--disgusted, but not shocked...that is what sinners DO. They sin. They are continually thinking of NEW ways to sin. Because they are sinners. What else would a sinner do?

That sounds like it could be coming from an xtian preacher!!!! :-)

I don;t hink I view most goyim as "sinners"....I guess I think of that as more xtian terminology....but maybe we're just talking semantics here.

It seems to me more and more that today's western culture is drifting towards the Dor HaMabul ....

...but even more shocking to me than the overt sexuality of the whole culture today, is the apparent "entertainment value" of machlokes and people's troubles.

The reality shows on TV seem to promote betrayal and dishonesty as the way to success.... and some of the talk shows where people are paraded on stage and then betrayed by their spouses for the delight of the audience simply disgust me., i.e., shows like Jerry Springer (Jew).

What does it say about our society that this kind of stuff is entertainment? I find this more troubling than the sexuality part...that is easy to understand.

Although I do love the irony that the goyim view us as objectfying women because of our customs, while they seem to view women soley on the basis of sexuality.

quote:

That sounds like it could be coming from an xtian preacher!!!! :-)

G-D FORBID! Are you trying to put a knife in my heart?

I see sin as sin. All thing people say and do that requires teshuvah is sin. Typically, that is found in spades inthe goyim world.

As to the irony--I couldn't agree with you more! It is odd that I hear those comments and then my schoolmates at the UNiversity tell me that they wish they had a husband like mine--that I must be the most loved wife in the world--and they are right. But all except one of my Jewish friends (female of course) are treated much the same way. Are we objectified? I hardly think so.

The entertainment industry has lost nearly all of our business. We still use the computer (obviously) and we have a televison for educational videos, but even the news we get via our Shul which sends out clips from Israeli News. Everything else--believe me, if it is important, we hear about it from everyone else. Jerry Springer, to my mind has been a terrible example of our people. Shame on him.

quote:

Originally posted by Robbycicco:
.... and some of the talk shows where people are paraded on stage and then betrayed by their spouses for the delight of the audience simply disgust me., i.e., shows like Jerry Springer (Jew).

What does it say about our society that this kind of stuff is entertainment? I find this more troubling than the sexuality part...that is easy to understand.

I am more concerned about what this says about the people who actually waste the time to watch this garbage, and then are bothered by it. If they wouldn't watch it, they wouldn't be disgusted by it.

Just because a Jew happens to know what is being shown in the media by another Jew on television doesn't mean they sit around all day watching/supporting that garbage. I have never seen an episode of Jerry Springer, but I know PRECISELY the nature of his programming because it is so popular that people discuss it all the time. AND YES, IT BOTHERS ME. I don't stick my head in the sand and say "it doesn't exist, it doesn't exist". Rather, I know precisely how to pray for my country which is clearly flailing in a moral quagmire of guiltless, irresponsible reprobate activity. I think it is unfair to judge someone so quickly then say "no harm, no foul" is the way to view it.

No matter how they felt inside, the people of the past usually would not display or condone immoral (or even distasteful) behavior because society censored them. Show that side of you, and you were usually shunned.

I am embarrassed about the society we live in today. I could list hundreds of things that bother me, beginning with and emphasizing what the above posters have already mentioned. But I will tell you the ONE good thing about modern society's acceptance of any and all behaviors: We now know exactly who everyone is.

People now wear their inner selves on their sleeves, both figuratively and literally. We can see by the way they dress, speak, and act exactly what type of person they are.

That makes it easy for moral people to identify them and distance themselves from them and their ideas.

What is very, very sad is the number of people who do not distance themselves - who, 15 years ago, would not have watched the shows or dressed this way, for example, but who have allowed themselves to become desensitized by constant association. I am especially angered by parents who tell their children not to act a certain way but then let them watch a steady stream of filthy TV shows, expecting them to NOT become desensitized.

If I had a choice, yes, I would go back a couple of generations to the time when society censored itself. I'm just pointing out the one good thing about the way things are today. Well, there is one more good thing: we can still individually choose to censor ourselves.

I have a question that the post above mentioning Jerry Springer brings to mind. (I had not known he was a Jew. I hope most non-Jews don't know that!) Is a person a Jew just because his mother was Jewish? If a person acts non-Jewish and is a total embarrassment to his faith, IS he actually Jewish? Does it take a person "officially" renouncing his religion or converting to a different religion to make him non-Jewish?

"What is very, very sad is the number of people who do not distance themselves - who, 15 years ago, would not have watched the shows or dressed this way, for example, but who have allowed themselves to become desensitized by constant association. I am especially angered by parents who tell their children not to act a certain way but then let them watch a steady stream of filthy TV shows, expecting them to NOT become desensitized."


SO TRUE! As to your question as to faith, I have had that question/discussion MANY times with my Rabbis, and they all maintain that they are still Jews, only living in a sinful manner. PERSONALLY, I disagree, but who am I?

As toyour point of people being easy to identify now...that is the most insightful observation.thought I have heard as for the advocation of this society's moral behaviour. Well said. I have never thought of it thus.

quote:

That makes it easy for moral people to identify them and distance themselves from them and their ideas.

But, unfortunately, this very fact makes it exponentially harder for these moral people to exist! It's impossible to bury one's head in the sand!

Dovi

Why do we have to bury our heads in the sand in order to live moral lives? I assume that what you and I and the other people on this web site do is to pick our heads up, see what is around us, feel repulsed, act the way G-d intended, and so feel like we can now hold our heads up even higher.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike:

I am more concerned about what this says about the people who actually waste the time to watch this garbage, and then are bothered by it. If they wouldn't watch it, they wouldn't be disgusted by it.

Ignoring it and pretending it doesn't exist is not going to help. I think your comment is a bit patronizing to imply that I sit around watching this and then complain.... I have seen it passing through the channels and I have watched a few moments of it in disgust....

I think these kinds of things are barometers for our society....helping us see the way things are going and to try and prevent the further erosion of our society as a whole.

Being Jews does not allow us the excuse of ignoring the rest of B'nei Noach and just worrying about ourselves....not if we are to set and example and be "a light unto the nations"

Robby

Here Here

Paula, you are right. We DO lift our heads up higher, and we ARE required to do so. I think it is probably harder for the men (guessing out of turn) because the women have been walking around nearly nude (most people's underclothing cover MORE than the girls I see walking around in what they don as "summer attire". My husband is constantly having to avert his eyes. What is funny is that my two girls are strong moralists and the younger (Yemina) claps her hand over her father's eyes if she sees a prostitute or like dresser and gasps. I tell her, "Honey, he wasn't even going to look at that person!" She replies, "I didn't even want him to see her BY ACCIDENT!" HA-HA well, that is all fine and good, but must she do it while HE'S DRIVING??

ANyway yes, it is difficult NOT see it, and there is an inundation now. Frankly enough is enough. My little girl is a closet proselytizer, I think, because she is so voacal about her religion. When she is in a social situation with goyim, they will ask her why are you in a long skirt while it is so hot outside, and there she goes...quotes Torah, quotes Talmud, and then caps it off with a final, "anyway, it's just a lot more modest and appropriate, don't you think?" Meanwhile the guest's wife is squirming uncomfortably tugging at their own mini-skirt while the husband is agreeing.

She got some poor woman in a grocery line the other day, Oy Vey!